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***SPOILERS*** Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi SPOILER Thread


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2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

But Rogue One isnt a stand alone movie. none of these are. So how could you give RO a pass, as it is actually the direct lead up to the Original Trilogy, but this one, with more movies still set to build this pout more, is critiqued in some different way?

Yes it is. Sure it leads up to the original trilogy and does a nice job for the most part. But this story, these characters were not meant to be continued on or built on. It was meant to tell one story and thats it. This trilogy is meant to tell several. And to build on it with each movie which it hasn't. So i am critiquing it based upon how other trilogies have done their stories and progressed them. 

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48 minutes ago, cddolphin said:

Whether he's being sincere or not, this means a whole lot of nothing. 100% chance Abrams has nothing but praise for the film, regardless of his true feelings.

Yea I dont know why people bring up Abrams or Kennedy or w/e saying that they are praising this film that must mean its good. It's their job to come out and say this is the greatest movie ever made and will start revolutions and change the world as we know it. Their job is on the line. Even Mark Hamill was cowed into having to say similar things after he said everything but "this story sucks".

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2 hours ago, StLunatic88 said:

You may have gotten caught in the crossfire of what has been about 45 pages now of this discussion, but your line I originally quoted was the perfect avatar of this side of the argument, and it was the perfect one to point out what we have been saying all along. 

You didnt like it for reasons rooted in the fact it didnt stick to some idea of the lore you believe to be gospel. You have indicated this many time in the past page of responses weather you realize it or not, and that may be the issue, that it is subconscious for you, but your complaints always go back to the "previous 8 films" and the "story of the Skywalkers". The thing is, if you actually look at what is happeneing in this movie, it is paying respects to all of those things from the past. And enhancing them, not tearing them down. just because the story has expanded past the Skywalkers, doesnt mean its throwing them in the garbage.

Yes Carrie Fisher's death is going to throw a wrench into things going forward. but when they finished this movie, There are 2 *Skywalkers left, and they were going to be the central part of Ep.9, and at the very least one of them still is.

Kylo is a Skywalker, he is still one of 2 Main Charachters in this franchise, please tell me HOW this is not still a Skywalker story?

I just 100% disagree with you on pretty much this entire post.  I don’t think this story enhanced the overall narrative at all.

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3 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

No, I want you to lay all your cards out on the table so that I can prove (based on the history of Star Wars and everything that makes Star Wars Star Wars) that your complaints are childish, unfounded and provably unfair based on everything you compare it to. 

What's the matter, are you a porg? 

Lmao yea sure you and everyone else who attempted it and yet failed to provide good arguments. And isn't that all you do with every movie and TV show that comes out, pretty sure you have been called out on that multiple times before? And where do you get your insults from? Are you a Porg?Are you an adolescent? But hey if you want plot holes and inconsistencies, here they are big and small. Everything I can think of off the top of my head that I had a problem with in this movie and a couple from the last one. If you got answers I would love to hear them on what was the point of them and why they were in the movies to begin with then? Address each one please with clarity. And if I think of some more I will post them.

 

  • The Map- Why does a man who goes off to die someplace alone leave a map for people to find him?
  • The Temple- Why does Luke who wants nothing more to do with the Force go off to find the first temple of the Jedi, not to mention all the beginning knowledge of the original Jedi Order if he has no interest in it what so ever? That doesn't make sense.
  • Luke giving up on Ben- Luke tries to kill his own nephew after seeing some vague images of his future. Luke faced down both Vader and the Emperor, his biggest strength in the OT was his stubbornness to believe that no one is beyond redemption. Defiantly throwing his lightsaber down in front of Palpatine. Facing him alone after refusing to kill his father despite the evidence to show that Vader had no hope of redemption. Vader committing countless atrocities and Luke still believed in him, and both Kenobi and Yoda thought it was impossible to do so. Ben who had yet to do anything and Luke felt it was too much and needed to end his nephew? That was a complete contradiction of his entire character and philosophy and him being a Grand Jedi Master having years of experience and practicing this philosophy, he just tosses it all out of the window at the drop of a hat? With no real proof? Give me the reasoning behind this.
  • Luke Grand Master robes- For a guy who wants nothing to do with the Jedi or the Force. Why was he dressing up in his old Grand Master robes and staring off into the sunset? 
  • First Order's Slow ships- Hux was annoyed that their cannons could not penetrate the shields of the cruiser. Instead he just opted to keep firing waiting for them to run out of fuel. Im curious as to why they did not call for backup to jump in front of them to cut them off? Or just make a fast maneuver to head them off if it was such a big deal? Why are they so slow to begin with. In the OT rebel ships couldn't outrun Star Destroyers and the FO is basically a spin off of the Empire ships.
  • Holdo's Plan- Why did she not tell Poe? Poe is a resistance hero and arguably its most loyal soldier. Why does Holdo feel the need to withold information from him? That entire decision led to the most pointless arc of the trilogy yet. Had she let him in on the plan there would have been no need to go to Canto Bight. There would have been no need for Rose, for Finn, for DJ who eventually betrayed them. It would have saved 40 minutes worth of a subplot, not to mention a bunch of transport ships that got blown up. So why the decision to withhold the info in the first place?
  • Speaking of DJ- How did he get a hold of that Top Secret information anyway? How did he know they were going to that mineral planet?
  • Why not more hackers- If these people are so useful, why did the resistance have to go out and find one? I would figure in such an advanced age they would have like a few dozen of them employed on the crew to begin with. 
  • Convenience- Everything happens to fall always in the right moment for the good guys. If hackers are so rare, how was there just happened to be 2 at the very same place the heroes were looking? Other conveniences detailed below.
  • Rey meeting up with Chewy- Rose and Finn needed an expert hacker to get them passed the shields as well as moving around on the ship, because basically it's impossible to move around that ship without a way to hack and it would bring the whole FO down on them. How does Rey escape in the most notable ship in Snoke's fleet (his own personal pod) and no one is sending a sh!t ton of Tie Fighters after her because she can't hack her way passed those shields?
  • Ren knew about the pod being knocked out- Connection aside and everything. How is this guy who got knocked out automatically know how Rey left the ship and what ship she used? I mean he didn't just get another vision at that time with her so how did he know?
  • Ren gets fooled way to easily- Luke's Force Projection. All this raw power and a developing mastermind according to some like @JonStark. He can't use simple powers of deduction to say "hey didn't I just destroy that lightsaber that your using?" How does he get psyched out like that?
  • The dice- So Ren can't touch Luke because he is a Force Projection. But he can give Leia dice from the Falcon to hold on too that disappears after he dies? How does that work?
  • Force Sensitive Kids- What was the point of showing them? Anyone who followed the prior 6 films knows that anyone can be born with midochlorions. It's their scientific explanation of how Force Users come to be in the first place and it does not discriminate. George Lucas clearly laid this out in Episode 1. So what was the point in showing a slave boy force pulling a broom other then pointing out what was already known?
  • Kid moving the broom- Ok it took years of training for both Luke and Anakin who was said to be the strongest force user ever to even be able to push or pull an object. Years of training. Let that sink in. So how is it both Rey and this kid are able to do it with no training?
  • Rey's mastery of the Force- Im still waiting on this explanation. She has been barely aware of the Force for like 2 weeks or a month at most now (which is the round about time how long these 2 movies take place) where as between ANH and the entire ESB movie the timeline takes place over the part of about 4 years. Luke is still very much a novice even by the time he meets Yoda and can't even lift an X-Wing. Rey doesn't even get lessons on how to control the force and she is able to lift a mountain, stand toe to toe with someone whos had years of experience of both light and dark side and she defeated the Greatest Jedi of all time in single combat. All with only a month tops of trying to figure out the force. With no lessons I might add. Now explain the reasoning behind her progress at such an unbelievable rate.
  • Rey's parentage- If it was no big deal on who her parents were. If they were nobodies and she was nothing special then why the mystery? She was sold to Unkar by her parents allegedly. If it's true and she is nothing special, why not a simple dialogue explaining this? Unkar having a conversation with her about it? Her being at his shop and he tells it to her, except it's nothing new. He's been saying it to her since she was little. "You're nothing. Your parents sold you to me and are probably dead in a dune some place. No one loves you, no one is coming for you. You belong to me." Or something along those lines, what was the point of building it up if there was meant to be no big reveal? I'll wait for an answer but still think Rian was misdirecting with this one. 
  • Rey doesn't see Ren's darkside- They're connected right? It's explained by Snoke that he can't hide anything from her. So even with that false projection that Snoke showed of Ren's redemption. How does she not see that coming considering he can't hide his true feelings from her. 
  • Ren lying to Hux- This one is even more confusing. Ren doesn't want the Sith to continue, yet everything about him screams Sith. Everything about him says he wants to be a strong as Vader and he wants everyone to know it. So why did he lie about how Snoke died? Hux can't do anything to him and it's not like he needs Hux's support the way he tosses him around like a ragdoll. He said Rey killed the Supreme Leader when everything about his character would scream that he was the one that did it and he would dare anyone to challenge him if they don't like it. The lie itself is inconsistent with how his character is. He has no reason to fear the backlash so why lie about it?
  • Snoke's hubris and other oversights- Ok I can kinda get behind this bit. But still it seems just such an oversight on his part that they couldn't have figured a better way to off him. This guy can sense everything basically. He can connect minds across the galaxy, overthrew the new republic and defeated it's greatest heroes. But he can't sense the force being used right next to him? He can't even hear the lightsaber (metal on metal) being turned near him? It was a cheap exit.
  • Luke's stress death- Another unbelievably cheap exit. Infact the biggest slap in the face thus far. We have seen force feats not seen in the Star Wars universe done by Snoke. Who seemed to do it effortlessly, with no strain what so ever on him. He also looks and seems far more frail and decrepit as opposed to Luke. So why was the Force projection too much of a strain on Luke? How did that kind of stress kill him where as Snoke plays with it like it's nothing?  Was Luke sick or something? Because he wasn't really that old. About maybe 55 or 60 at the very most which is nothing is Star Wars even for humans. considering he was about 20 around a new hope. 25 by the time ROTJ and this timeline takes place like 30 years after that. 
  • Snoke still has no backstory- Maybe MAYBE we can wait for episode 9 to see if they build on him a bit. But it's still a huge pile of sh!t thus far. I don't want to hear about how Palpatine didn't have one. As I explained before he was introduced in Episode 6 leaving the first 3 episodes (which were always intended) open to build his and Vader's legacy. It worked. Snoke still has nothing surrounding him as to why he was so powerful, how he managed to accomplished what he did, nothing to explain him. So there is one movie left to explain this. And if not and you are actually fine with that BS then the whole concept of plot holes and the gripes concerning them is lost on you. 
  • First Order not using Tie Fighters- They have like 10 thousand of these fighters. If the fighters can fly through the shields which was shown. Why did they only use 3? Considering the damage only 3 did to the bridge not to mention what Poe did to a dreadnought. 
  • Mary Poppins Leia- Doesn't need an explanation. Just an answer. Where did she learn to do this?
  • Lack of physics- Ships in space slow down when they don't have fuel. Inertia be damned. Bombs falling in space. OT still gets a laugh because they didn't know any better but these guys should have.
  • Shields or lack of- A shield was put up around the bridge after Leia was blown out of it. So when they opened the door to get her they all didn't get sucked out into space. So how did Leia not run into that thing when she was trying to float back in?
  • Transports can't dodge in space- The lasers from the cannons only go in a straight line. The transports that are heading away from them are God knows how far away. So how were they so easily picked off? Why did they not try to evade at all the incoming shots? I mean Poe dodged them easily at when he was basically at spitting distance. Why didn't the main ship just move in the way of the transports to protect them?
  • First Order didn't blow up Finn and Rose- There was like a dozen super At-At's standing right behind them? All of them were basically looking at Rose and Finn and that idiotic moment about saving people even though you just doomed the Resistance in the process. How did the First Order not shoot them? They were also what seemed like miles away from the bunker. How did Finn pull Rose all the way back with not even a scratch on him.
  • Casino arc- Ok what was the point of it besides propaganda? I have already pointed out that if Holdo was just upfront with Poe it would avoided the entire arc. But pushing that aside. What was the point of the arc? They picked up the first hacker they found, they still left the kids in slavery but considered the entire thing a success because they freed the animals. Even though Rose once again put the entire Resistance in jeopardy to do one idiotic thing. 
  • The point of Rose- What was her purpose? She claims to be a supporter of the Resistance and yet almost single handidly doomed it on two separate occasions for selfish reasons in the film. First one was at the casino as I stated earlier to free some animals, claiming that it was worth being killed just to stick it to those rich people. Even though they needed a hacker to save the entire resistance, but you know screw those guys and the slave children they didn't bother trying to save too. 2nd was interrupting Finn's heroic sacrifice to stop the ram cannon which would have protected the resistance. Because you know saving those you love is how you win the war. So Finn is basically worth more then the entire Rebel fleet. So what was the purpose of Rose? I'm starting to think she is a FO spy. 
  • Hyper Space ram tactic- Why was this just now thought of? I mean if the shields of those ships couldn't protect them from that cruiser jumping to Hyper Space. Why wasn't it done immediately when they abandoned ship? Why was this never done before? I figured it was because of powerful shields but that doesn't make a difference really.
  • Do rebel ships not have autopilot- Why did Holdo have to go down with the ship?
  • The resistance escaping- The First Order still has ships that weren't cut in half. So they had them to be able to monitor the planet. So how did the Millennium Falcon escape them without getting shot as soon as they left atmosphere? In previous movies they had to knock out a special tracker or w/e just so the Destroyers couldn't target them. 
  • Hyper Space tracking- Continuing from the first one. If Snoke's ship was damaged and as Finn and Rose explained they could just transfer the tracker to another ship how did the Falcon even get away without the Order able to track and follow them? The movie should still be in progress.
  • Why do they have so much Hope at the end- Sure they survived. But they are confident they can rebuild the resistance even though literally no one showed up to help them? Luke is dead and everyone knows now. So there is no great silver lining or bright future to look foward too. So what was the plan?
  • Finn sparing with Phasma- How does Phasma who is supposed to be a badazz keep getting knocked around? She was also supposed to have a larger role in this movie and yet was offed once again after like 5 minutes.
  • Phasma's armor- Why is this armor not standard among every trooper if it can block blaster fire?
  • Phasma still alive- she was in the garbage on a planet that blew up. how did she even get out?
  • How can Yoda control the elements- In previous movies it is stated that the Force Ghosts cannot interfere, Obi-Wan himself said this. And yet Yoda struck the first temple with lightning. It was also heavily implied that the reason Yoda did not contact Luke during those long years was because Luke cut himself off from the force. The lightning though contradicts this implication because it shows Yoda does not need to be in contact with someone Force Sensitive in order to interact with the physical realm. 
  • Anakin's Lightsaber- Are people still ok with not having any explanation on how it got to Maz in the first place?
  • Pretorian Guards- How are these non Force Users able to put up any sort of fight against 2 people with "such RAW POWER."?
  • Snoke's telescope- What was the point of that thing? Snoke made Rey look through it to see the Resistance Ships being blown up. But really? They couldn't put something in there a little more advanced?
  • Kylo and Rey's training- We were told this was going to happen. Quite literally with Snoke saying he wants to complete Ren's training. But it never happens. Of course it doesn't matter with Rey. Script has it written where all this ability just comes to her naturally.
  • Where are the Knights of Ren- The Guards weren't them, they still have not explained who or what they are which makes you wonder what is even the point of the name Kylo Ren?
  • Jedi Survivors- It was stated the Ren spared some of the students and took them with him whether willing or by force. But we still have not heard what happened there.
  • The Bomber sequence- Talked about shields a bit ago. So how did the bombers even get the bombs through the shields? Cause fighters I guess can fly through them but Poe did not take out any shield generators. Which means those things should have hit a force field.
  • Porg's- What was the point of them in the film?
  • Flash back images- So if Rey is no one special. She has no connection to Luke or Ren at that point during TFA. Or anyway Skywalker for that matter. Why then would the lightsaber show her images of the burning temple when it was with Maz and had no connection to anyone before she came into possession of it. If all it's doing is showing her past images of what it's been through?
  • Balancing- This is a huge gripe. People do not just become more powerful with the force just to counter balance a good or an evil. There is always a struggle to reach that peak and the training put forth to match that power they obtain. Except for no reason at all it is just all given to Rey with nothing earned by her. Also this sort of thing has nothing to do with the balance discussed in the OT. By that logic then Luke should have become as strong as both Vader and the Emperor put together by the end of ROTJ which didn't happened. He didn't balance the Force with this "might makes right" crap that Rian is putting forth. He did it through understanding and force of character to bring his father back from the dark side and to cancel out both Vaders powers and the Emperors. By setting Vader against the Emperor. When did this "raw power" logic become the norm for Star Wars, that the strongest is always the one who succeeds? Palpatine didn't take on the whole Jedi order through Force Powers alone. It was a Grand Strategy where he toppled their entire order. And it was love that eventually brought about his downfall. Because he was still more powerful then both Luke and Vader together.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

Nitpicking whining.

Why does Luke leave a map, why does he go to Temple if he wants nothing to do with it? 

-Simple.  Luke "ran away from home."  As I said from the beginning, Luke has been a whiner from the beginning.  Always throwing tantrums, complaining or losing his cool when the chips are down.  This is Luke throughout the entire history of Luke.  He left a map because he wasn't serious, and he sought out the Temple because he was looking for answers.  This is just one of 100 ways to explain these two questions.

Luke "wanting to kill his nephew."

As I've already explained, AND AS LUKE EFFING SKYWALKER EXPLAINED... Luke went to where Ben was sleeping.  He looked into Ben's mind.  He saw things that scared him, and for the briefest moment, AS LUKE SAID HIMSELF, he acted on INSTINCT.  FOR A SECOND before he changed his mind.  Ben just happened to open his eyes and assume the worst.  This is really the simplest answer.  You just refuse to believe it.  There's precedent for this, too.  On Dagobah, Luke saw an image of Han and Leia in the clouds.  He assumed they'd died, and ON INSTINCT, he had to go off to save them.  Once again, everything here is in exact order with everything Luke did in the original trilogy.  Everybody says, "Oh, Luke refused to fight Vader, blah blah blah, but he can kill his own nephew."  When it came to Vader, he had weeks, probably MONTHS to reflect on the fact that Vader was his father.  He had SECONDS after seeing what Ben might become.  Then, when the Emperor taunted him, Luke finally gave in, took the lightsaber and started fighting.  He said he wouldn't fight anymore, then Vader taunted him about his sister, and what did Luke do?  He frickin tried to kill his father, literally SCREAMED and went ham on Vader.  Why?  Because Luke Skywalker was, is and forever will be INSTINCTUAL.  I feel like all the whiners - yourself definitely included - need to look this word up and commit its meaning to memory. 

Luke Grand Master robes- For a guy who wants nothing to do with the Jedi or the Force. Why was he dressing up in his old Grand Master robes and staring off into the sunset?

Omg, is this a real question?  Are you that incapable of following a plot?  Which part are you talking about, in the beginning or after he decided and realized he was having a temper tantrum thanks to Yoda?  Because maybe when you go to a secluded island, you don't pack your Hawaiian shirts and khaki shorts and all you bring with are your Jedi clothes because all you have are your Jedi clothes.  The Whining is strong with this one. 

First Order's Slow ships

Star Destroyers old, Rebel's ship new.  Simple.  Duh.  Thirty years passed.  The Empire was defeated, the Rebels won.  Thirty years is a lot of time between Star Destroyers and new ships for the Rebel Alliance.  This is such a non-issue that I don't think you watch movies.  Ever.  I literally don't think you're capable of understanding what a plot device is.  Literally. 

Holdo's Plan- Why did she not tell Poe?

Why didn't Poe tell her his plan?  Because nobody trusted anybody.  Rose and Finn seemed to be the only ones who knew that the First Order had new technology that allowed them to be tracked.  To everybody else, what's a really simple way to explain how and why you were tracked?  A spy.  DUH.  It's easy to say Poe is the most loyal, but what about the people Poe trusts?  And so on down the line.  Do you trust everybody that everybody else trusts?  Because if you tell one person, you know others will find out.  Again, do you have any legitimate complaints?  ANY LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS THAT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED EXTREMELY SIMPLY?  Because I haven't seen any yet. 

Speaking of DJ- How did he get a hold of that Top Secret information anyway? How did he know they were going to that mineral planet?

Well this one REALLY isn't surprising.  Looks like you didn't pay attention during the movie, Buttercup.  Poe radios Finn and tells Finn what's going on.  You can literally see DJ in the background listening in on the conversation.  Have any complaints that aren't really, really, really bad?  Any?  Any? 

Why not more hackers

Why not more Jedi?  This is a really bad question.  They found out they needed a hacker.  They were about to commit what amounted to mutiny.  If they DID have super duper expert hackers available that were the best hackers in the galaxy, do you think they could go around asking for one?  Do you see how simply these answers are provided if you just think of an explanation instead of DECIDE TO HATE THE MOVIE BECAUSE IT DID NOT DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANTED IT TO?

Convenience- Everything happens to fall always in the right moment for the good guys. If hackers are so rare, how was there just happened to be 2 at the very same place the heroes were looking? Other conveniences detailed below.

Convenient you don't like speculation.  A lot of people are speculating that DJ was the hacker they went to find.  That he lost his lapel to the man who was wearing it and then ended up in prison.  But you don't want to speculate, you want to hate.  Additionally... Are you ready for this one?  Are you ready?  Hold onto your panties...

THIS.  IS.  STAR WARS.

You're complaining about convenience.  YOU ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT CONVENIENCE IN A FILM SERIES THAT HAS AN ALL-KNOWING, EVER PRESENT FORCE LITERALLY CALLED THE FORCE THAT HAS LITERALLY GUIDED PEOPLE TOWARDS EACH OTHER FOR 7 FEATURE LENGTH THEATRICAL RELEASES. 

Was it convenience that led Luke to Obi Wan?  Was it convenience that led R2 and C-3PO to Luke?  Was it convenience that led Luke and Obi Wan to Han and Chewie?  I could go on with this literally longer than you would read.  In a movie that detailed how The Force balances good and evil better than any of the previous movies, you're complaining about convenience?  How convenient for you to miss the entire driving FORCE of the entire Star Wars saga. 

Rey meeting up with Chewy-

Rey and Chewie made the plan before Rey even got aboard the ship.  Your complaint is stupid. 

Rose and Finn needed an expert hacker to get them passed the shields as well as moving around on the ship, because basically it's impossible to move around that ship without a way to hack and it would bring the whole FO down on them.

What are you complaining about here?  I mean I know it's a stupid complaint, I just don't know how.  Are you asking how Rey was able to do what Rose and Finn did?  Maybe it's because DJ shut down the shields and Rey took advantage of that.  Because... You know... She got there after Rose and Finn.  But I'm sure you could deduce that yourself if you weren't too busy grasping at straws. 

How does Rey escape in the most notable ship in Snoke's fleet (his own personal pod) and no one is sending a sh!t ton of Tie Fighters after her because she can't hack her way passed those shields?

Ren knew about the pod being knocked out

I don't remember this part well.  How did Ren get knocked out?  Is it possible he wasn't and that he relented and let Rey escape?  Explains both questions. 

Ren gets fooled way to easily- Luke's Force Projection. All this raw power...

Lol.  Ren's weakness is his rage.  Luke uses that against him by taunting him.  He was fooled because Luke literally turned himself into a projection without the technology used to create a projection.  This is like me sending you an email with my mind, and you're complaining that Ren, who was trained by Luke, is fooled by it way too easily? 

You're a whiner.  Literally every single one of your complaints had an EASY counter to it.  Dislike the movie all you want, but quit trying to convince people that it was a crap movie.  Until you stop complaining, I'll just start challenging you to write a Star Wars movie that's dissimilar from the original trilogy, but also good.  I'd love to read it. 

The dice- So Ren can't touch Luke because he is a Force Projection. But he can give Leia dice from the Falcon to hold on too that disappears after he dies? How does that work?

OMG, Luke appeared as a force projection and you're complaining about the dice.  Get over yourself. 

Force Sensitive Kids-

Probably to show that the rebellion wasn't dead, you dolt.  This was the end scene, right?  I've already touched on this. 

Kid moving the broom- Ok it took years of training for both Luke and Anakin who was said to be the strongest force user ever to even be able to push or pull an object. Years of training. Let that sink in. So how is it both Rey and this kid are able to do it with no training?

More evil, more good.  Balance.  Did you watch any Star Wars?  Ever? 

Rey's mastery of the Force-Now explain the reasoning behind her progress at such an unbelievable rate.

Balance.  Did you watch the movie?  The entire movie explained this.  The entire history of Star Wars explains this.  She's the proverbial Yin to Ren's Yang.  You are awful. 

Rey's parentage

You're awful.  Call it a red herring.  Call it a lie.  This is a trivial non-issue.  If there was a major twist with her parents, sae damn complaints from you, just a different direction.  "It's just like Empire Strikes Back!!!!  I'm going to crap my pants in complaints!"  With such hype and speculation, literally the only surprising twist would be that her parents are nothing. 

Rey doesn't see Ren's darkside- They're connected right? It's explained by Snoke that he can't hide anything from her. So even with that false projection that Snoke showed of Ren's redemption. How does she not see that coming considering he can't hide his true feelings from her. 

Literally 100 possible ways to explain this if you actually try.  Try this one: Rey isn't evil.  e legitimately wants to end the Sith, the Jedi and just rule based on what he thinks is right.  You aren't even trying anything other than hating.  It is so damn simple to come up with explanations for all of these complaints if you actually try anything other than blind hatred for the movie. 

Ren lying to Hux-

Lol, no reason to lie about killing the Supreme Leader.  Got it.  Because he could definitely fight the entire First Order himself.  For all you know, Snoke WAS the First Order.  You have literally no reason nor cause to suggest that Ren wouldn't face backlash for killing Snoke. 

Snoke's hubris and other oversights- Ok I can kinda get behind this bit. But still it seems just such an oversight on his part that they couldn't have figured a better way to off him. This guy can sense everything basically. He can connect minds across the galaxy, overthrew the new republic and defeated it's greatest heroes. But he can't sense the force being used right next to him? He can't even hear the lightsaber (metal on metal) being turned near him? It was a cheap exit.

A, for all we know Snoke isn't dead.  B, hubris is literally the cause of the downfall for every evil character in the history of Star Wars.  Ben is supposed to be the strongest ever.  It stands to reason that Ben would require less effort to destroy his master than any of the others.  Simple.  You're a whiner. 

Luke's stress death- Another unbelievably cheap exit

Once again, did you watch this movie?  They literally talked about it.  THERE WAS LITERALLY A CONVERSATION ABOUT IT.  Rey literally said to Leia that it was a peace death.  Do you remember when Yoda died?  Can you physically with your brain remember it?  Yoda went on his own accord, and you can't possibly get it into your head, due to your blind hatred, that Luke did the same damn thing?  You're a whiner. 

Snoke still has no backstory

Disney decided to pick up the story 30 years later.  By your logic, I can complain about them not showing how Palpatine got into politics.  This complaint is invalid. 

First Order not using Tie Fighters- They have like 10 thousand of these fighters. If the fighters can fly through the shields which was shown. Why did they only use 3? Considering the damage only 3 did to the bridge not to mention what Poe did to a dreadnought. 

Which scene are you talking about?

Mary Poppins Leia- Doesn't need an explanation. Just an answer. Where did she learn to do this?

Leia trained to be a Jedi.  Stopped once she became pregnant with Ben.  This is not explained in the movie, but it is what happened.  Next?

Lack of physics

Do you see yet why people call you a whiner?  Have Neil Degrasse Tyson go through the physics of the original trilogy and then shut the hell up while you're at it about the physics of a damn space opera FANTASY.  My God, do you read what you write, or are your fingers your brain? 

Shields or lack of

It literally showed the doors shutting to seal the bridge.  You are literally the worst complainer ever. 

EDIT:

I copied and pasted.  It messed up the paste for some reason, so I'll have to get the rest of your complaints after work.  I'm sure they're just as bad as the first half-ish that I responded to, so it won't take too long, don't worry. 

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To me, the only legitimate complaint is not liking Rose.  That's a fine complaint because there's no counter to it.  You don't like a character, you don't like a character.  However, I hate C-3PO and the original trilogy is my most beloved trilogy ever and I will cherish it until the day I die.  The other CLOSE TO legitimate complaint is them going to the casino.  I'm not about to let that become a legitimate complaint until I see the third movie in the trilogy, and until I see what the next trilogy is.  90% certain this movie doesn't end on some random kid on some backwater planet looking up into the stars.  Meaning, I'm 90% certain that kid that you saw at  the end is going to be a major player in the final movie of this trilogy, or throughout the next trilogy.

If nothing comes from that casino other than DJ and a Rose/Finn romance, it will have become a legitimate complaint.  And... Meh, who cares?  The movie needed action scenes.  It needed some sort of plot device to get characters off the ship.  The movie was a very story-heavy movie, so it needed Finn and Rose going somewhere else.  If they didn't add that, people would be complaining that it was boring.  It was necessary in so much as it was an action movie without enough action. 

I just really loathe and despise people trying to crap on it because it wasn't what they wanted.  They are literally proving to be exactly like Luke was throughout the entire first trilogy by complaining that he wasn't what he was like, even though he was.  Self-centered, self-absorbed, selfish, instinctual, impulsive... Whiners.  They're whiners. 

I really wish I could meet Rian Johnson JUST to thank him for taking such huge risks with a beloved property by making all of it so much more real, and all so much less predictable.  I've never been more excited about Star Wars than I am right now. 

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10 hours ago, Calvert28 said:
  • Ren gets fooled way to easily- Luke's Force Projection. All this raw power and a developing mastermind according to some like @JonStark. He can't use simple powers of deduction to say "hey didn't I just destroy that lightsaber that your using?" How does he get psyched out like that?

Looking forward to this debate between you two, but wanted to address this.

All characters develop throughout their journey, and if the OT started at the beginning of Anakin/Vader's journey, you would have some of the same complaints you do now. Snoke was made to be almighty and powerful as a stepping stone for Ren, which is a much more impotant character, to reach his full potential (assuming Snoke is actually dead). Ren is still a work in progress, but tricking Snoke was a HUGE step for him. Saying that Ren is getting closer to reaching his potential and mind-tricked Snoke is much more plausible than saying Snoke just didn't think things through...

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4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Luke "wanting to kill his nephew."

As I've already explained, AND AS LUKE EFFING SKYWALKER EXPLAINED... Luke went to where Ben was sleeping.  He looked into Ben's mind.  He saw things that scared him, and for the briefest moment, AS LUKE SAID HIMSELF, he acted on INSTINCT.  FOR A SECOND before he changed his mind.  Ben just happened to open his eyes and assume the worst.  This is really the simplest answer.  You just refuse to believe it.  There's precedent for this, too.  On Dagobah, Luke saw an image of Han and Leia in the clouds.  He assumed they'd died, and ON INSTINCT, he had to go off to save them.  Once again, everything here is in exact order with everything Luke did in the original trilogy.  Everybody says, "Oh, Luke refused to fight Vader, blah blah blah, but he can kill his own nephew."  When it came to Vader, he had weeks, probably MONTHS to reflect on the fact that Vader was his father.  He had SECONDS after seeing what Ben might become.  Then, when the Emperor taunted him, Luke finally gave in, took the lightsaber and started fighting.  He said he wouldn't fight anymore, then Vader taunted him about his sister, and what did Luke do?  He frickin tried to kill his father, literally SCREAMED and went ham on Vader.  Why?  Because Luke Skywalker was, is and forever will be INSTINCTUAL.  I feel like all the whiners - yourself definitely included - need to look this word up and commit its meaning to memory. 

I don't agree with you @HorizontoZenith .  He has a valid point.  Based upon what we've seen in the past this scene was VERY out of character for him, and really made no sense to me.  It was bad writing IMO.  Mark Hammill has also stated that he didn't like the direction they went with Luke as it was out of character.  

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

First Order's Slow ships

Star Destroyers old, Rebel's ship new.  Simple.  Duh.  Thirty years passed.  The Empire was defeated, the Rebels won.  Thirty years is a lot of time between Star Destroyers and new ships for the Rebel Alliance.  This is such a non-issue that I don't think you watch movies.  Ever.  I literally don't think you're capable of understanding what a plot device is.  Literally. 

The First Order's ships aren't the old Star Destroyers from the Empire are they?  They don't look the same.  Either way, this is pretty silly.  They said in the movie the Resistance ships are smaller and lighter which is why they can outrun the First Order ships.  That seems like enough explanation to me.  

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Holdo's Plan- Why did she not tell Poe?

Why didn't Poe tell her his plan?  Because nobody trusted anybody.  Rose and Finn seemed to be the only ones who knew that the First Order had new technology that allowed them to be tracked.  To everybody else, what's a really simple way to explain how and why you were tracked?  A spy.  DUH.  It's easy to say Poe is the most loyal, but what about the people Poe trusts?  And so on down the line.  Do you trust everybody that everybody else trusts?  Because if you tell one person, you know others will find out.  Again, do you have any legitimate complaints?  ANY LEGITIMATE COMPLAINTS THAT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED EXTREMELY SIMPLY?  Because I haven't seen any yet. 

I didn't like this plot point of the movie, and on second viewing I disliked it even more.  They intentionally tried to make Holdo look like a villain so they could get a gotcha moment at the end.  It just didn't play well IMO.  But beyond just this, I think it was a huge waste to have several of the main characters in the movie stuck in a single starship effectively doing nothing for the majority of the film.  

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Rey meeting up with Chewy-

Rey and Chewie made the plan before Rey even got aboard the ship.  Your complaint is stupid. 

I don't think this is a stupid complaint.  We see Rey battling Kyle Ren in Snoke's room and then the next time we see her she's on the Falcon with Chewy in the battle on the salt planet.  After my first viewing I thought that I had just missed something but on my second I realized they just didn't explain it.  The blast knocked Kylo Ren out, but Rey's able to escape through an entire ship full of troopers and get back onto the Falcon somehow?  It just seemed like they jumped her around to wherever they needed her to advance the story without much thought (I compare it to the most recent season of Game of Thrones with Jon Snow). 

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Rey's mastery of the Force-Now explain the reasoning behind her progress at such an unbelievable rate.

Balance.  Did you watch the movie?  The entire movie explained this.  The entire history of Star Wars explains this.  She's the proverbial Yin to Ren's Yang.  You are awful.

The entire history of Star Wars explains what?  The Jedi used to take children at a young age and begin training them because it took so long to train someone.  Anakin, the most powerful force user ever recognized by the Jedi, had Jedi reflexes and such as a child but had to be trained in order to use force abilities.  Luke couldn't use the force until he was trained.  This is a legitimate gripe with the new movies (both FA and TLJ), how in the world is Rey doing all of this?  

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Ren lying to Hux-

Lol, no reason to lie about killing the Supreme Leader.  Got it.  Because he could definitely fight the entire First Order himself.  For all you know, Snoke WAS the First Order.  You have literally no reason nor cause to suggest that Ren wouldn't face backlash for killing Snoke. 

Kyle Ren lying to Hux is an interesting point to consider.  Up until the point pretty much everything Kyle Ren had said was pretty much proven to be true (such as Luke attacking him and such).  I wonder if him lying to Hux there is foreshadowing that he lied to Rey about his parents.  

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Luke's stress death- Another unbelievably cheap exit

Once again, did you watch this movie?  They literally talked about it.  THERE WAS LITERALLY A CONVERSATION ABOUT IT.  Rey literally said to Leia that it was a peace death.  Do you remember when Yoda died?  Can you physically with your brain remember it?  Yoda went on his own accord, and you can't possibly get it into your head, due to your blind hatred, that Luke did the same damn thing?  You're a whiner. 

I thought Luke's death was weak too, but I hate Luke's entire story in this movie.  Yoda died of old age I don't think asking why Luke just faded away at still a relatively young age is a dumb question.  The writer wanted Luke to go away so he was like, hmmmm lets just make him fade away problem solved.  

4 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Snoke still has no backstory

Disney decided to pick up the story 30 years later.  By your logic, I can complain about them not showing how Palpatine got into politics.  This complaint is invalid. 

How can anyone not be disappointed with the way Snoke was just killed off in this movie?  There was no planned red herring moment by the writers, that is a silly argument.  JJ Abrams established Snoke as the leader of the First Order and Rian Johnson just got rid of him.  Johnson has said they barely spoke about the direction of the franchise.  This is a waste of an interesting character IMO.  

5 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Mary Poppins Leia- Doesn't need an explanation. Just an answer. Where did she learn to do this?

Leia trained to be a Jedi.  Stopped once she became pregnant with Ben.  This is not explained in the movie, but it is what happened.  Next?

The EU isn't cannon anymore so you can't assume Leia ever trained to be a Jedi (and also we're really saying Jedi can fly through space now?).  I'm 100% in agreement with him on this.  The stupid flying through space scene was one of the dumbest moments I've ever seen on film.  It was designed as a shock OMG she's dead moment, just so they could cheaply bring her back a minute later.  I don't get why anyone would defend this scene?  It's probably the worst scene ever shot for a Star Wars film.  

 

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12 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

I don't agree with you @HorizontoZenith .  He has a valid point.  Based upon what we've seen in the past this scene was VERY out of character for him, and really made no sense to me.  It was bad writing IMO.  Mark Hammill has also stated that he didn't like the direction they went with Luke as it was out of character.  

How can anyone not be disappointed with the way Snoke was just killed off in this movie?  There was no planned red herring moment by the writers, that is a silly argument.  JJ Abrams established Snoke as the leader of the First Order and Rian Johnson just got rid of him.  Johnson has said they barely spoke about the direction of the franchise.  This is a waste of an interesting character IMO.  

The EU isn't cannon anymore so you can't assume Leia ever trained to be a Jedi (and also we're really saying Jedi can fly through space now?).  I'm 100% in agreement with him on this.  The stupid flying through space scene was one of the dumbest moments I've ever seen on film.  It was designed as a shock OMG she's dead moment, just so they could cheaply bring her back a minute later.  I don't get why anyone would defend this scene?  It's probably the worst scene ever shot for a Star Wars film.  

 

I think the first point is a matter of opinion. I agree with HT that it basically falls right in line with the Luke Skywalker character throughout his arc, even if that's not what the fans wanted out of him.

To the second point, because this isn't Snoke's story. It's Ben Solo's. Snoke's death was meant to further his arc so we don't need his backstory. And honestly, all of this discussion goes out the window if he is still alive. Just another reason to wait until the trilogy is over to judge it.

For Leia, it's no secret she's strong in the force. She's a Skywalker. If the complaint is for the actual act of her flying, that is beyond stupid. We've been waiting for so long to see her actually use her power, which makes it that much more impactful. Could it have been shot better, probably, but for everyone to use this as a negative on the film is just a joke. There were so many gorgeous shots in the movie that no one talks about.

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It's pretty sad that there is no in between on the internet anymore. If you criticise something you're a whiny, hating, fanboy. Apparently you have to love and agree with everything. Can't we have both? Things can be good and still have flaws. 

I will never buy the instinctual argument. What instinct triggers a grown man to pull a lightsaber on his weaker, sleeping nephew. Totally an instinctual reaction. It's weak. 

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5 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I just really loathe and despise people trying to crap on it because it wasn't what they wanted.  They are literally proving to be exactly like Luke was throughout the entire first trilogy by complaining that he wasn't what he was like, even though he was.  Self-centered, self-absorbed, selfish, instinctual, impulsive... Whiners.  They're whiners. 

Or maybe they just have different opinions and would like to voice them? Maybe they aren't as convinced of some arguments that people are making. Such a lazy way to dismiss someone's opinion. 

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4 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

It's pretty sad that there is no in between on the internet anymore. If you criticise something you're a whiny, hating, fanboy. Apparently you have to love and agree with everything. Can't we have both? 

Exactly.  I've said repeatedly that in general I thought it was an enjoyable movie. I just thought it was a poor continuation of the Star Wars story, and in that sense I think they failed as writers.  I'm apparently supposed to love the fact that they made the Force Awakens a completely irrelevant movie.  

6 minutes ago, sunnygsm said:

will never buy the instinctual argument. What instinct triggers a grown man to pull a lightsaber on his weaker, sleeping nephew. Totally an instinctual reaction. It's weak. 

A grown man that has spent his entire adult life training his mind and feelings to resist the dark side.  Ya its a complete departure from his character and makes no sense.  Terrible writing IMO.  Kylo Ren being seduced by Snoke and killing or turning the rest of the students would have been plenty of incentive for Luke to go and be a hermit.  

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