I’ve got a feelin…

[rlon]

No, not that Pittsburghs going to the Super Bowl…I have got a feeling that Pickett proves all the knee jerk doubters wrong. Stephen A., iyour BS of including Deshaun Watson amongst the elite afcn QBs and as one of the reason the Steelers need to bring in Justin Fields…stupid. Justin fields sucks, and so does Deshaun Jackson. Take Penix if he lasts until he third, or Rattler in the fourth, or Hartman in the 6th, for developmental sake. But don’t give me bs like Watson or Fields are franchise QBs. 

[mwalker]

He's getting hit awfully hard. He's not been as bad as some are saying.
I think we'll know what we have after this year. Still think some competition is 
good, but agree, he's getting hammered more than he deserves. 

[armsteeld]

Feelings don't equate to a player being successful or not. Some guys can work hard and still not exceed. KP looks like a career backup at best from what I've seen. This isn't Madden career where the player (fan) can control careers. I wanted CB Senquez Golson to be a megastar with the Steelers but he NEVER played a preseason game as he was always injured. Whether injuries or lack of talent, some players never develop to the standards we have for them.

[AFF]

It’s not knee jerk to think Pickett isn’t the answer…like at all.

[mwalker]

1 hour ago, armsteeld said:

Feelings don't equate to a player being successful or not. Some guys can work hard and still not exceed. KP looks like a career backup at best from what I've seen. This isn't Madden career where the player (fan) can control careers. I wanted CB Senquez Golson to be a megastar with the Steelers but he NEVER played a preseason game as he was always injured. Whether injuries or lack of talent, some players never develop to the standards we have for them.

I thought Golson was going to be a stud.

[Steeler Hitman]

3 hours ago, rlon said:

No, not that Pittsburghs going to the Super Bowl…I have got a feeling that Pickett proves all the knee jerk doubters wrong. Stephen A., iyour BS of including Deshaun Watson amongst the elite afcn QBs and as one of the reason the Steelers need to bring in Justin Fields…stupid. Justin fields sucks, and so does Deshaun Jackson. Take Penix if he lasts until he third, or Rattler in the fourth, or Hartman in the 6th, for developmental sake. But don’t give me bs like Watson or Fields are franchise QBs. 

I think that Pickett deserves an opportunity to develop and prove his worth. I was not necessarily the biggest fan of taking him in the draft, but I understood why the Steelers did. 

I like Pickett's character, heart, and mental toughness. I think he can be good with support. He can have a young Russell Wilson type of affect. 

He is a Steeler and I support him. I am privately rooting for him to prove his detractors wrong. 

[3rivers]

see what the OL is like. If KP has no pass pro, then expect a bad season.  At least he will have a legit OC and most likely decent to good run game, so that all 1helps

18 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

He is a Steeler and I support him. I am privately rooting for him to prove his detractors wrong. 

I'm on a forum rooting for him, not sure how private that is , but as the season goes on it might be a regular thread about KP .

He really hasn't had a fair chance , everything was done wrong here thanks to colbert and tomlin.  Maybe they will get it right in year 4? or maybe year 3.

[43M]

Not sure you understand what "knee jerk" is.

Pickett has played two seasons in the NFL and has shown no real growth.   I get he had a horrible OC, but it doesnt bode well that a guy like Mason Rudolph came in and looked much better than Pickett has at any point in his NFL career.     

Beyond that, many of us on here were not big fans of Pickett coming out.    What he has shown thus far.....its about what many of us expected from Pickett, perhaps even worse.    

Not sure what Watson and Fields have to do with Pickett, either.   Regardless of what you think of those two, Pickett hasn't shown anything to get REALLY excited about.  Sure, he has shown a few flashes, and there is always the remote chance that he proves all the naysayers wrong, but its highly unlikely at this point.   I could perhaps see him being better this year, but not long term franchise QB better.     If Pickett even progresses into becoming an adequate stop gap, journeyman type starter, I would consider that a success for him.

Right now, I think he is looking like the next Christian Ponder.      

[Steeler Hitman]

14 hours ago, 3rivers said:

See what the OL is like. If KP has no pass pro, then expect a bad season.  At least he will have a legit OC and most likely decent to good run game, so that all helps.

I think that Andy Weidl is pounding the table to upgrade the Steelers in the trenches. The teams in the AFC & NFC Championship games had very good OL's. Everyone says QB play, but I would argue it is the OL.  Both Detroit and SF lost because they stopped pounding the ball in the second half after getting a lead.  

I'm on a forum rooting for him, not sure how private that is, but as the season goes on it might be a regular thread about KP.

I am rooting for him as well.  I like to be fair and give players a fair shot. He deserves a shot to show what he can do.  The offense needs too protect him and give him a run game and good offensive scheme.

He really hasn't had a fair chance, everything was done wrong here thanks to Colbert and Tomlin.  Maybe they will get it right in year 3 or maybe year 4?

The Steelers really didn't do Big Ben right either.  They never signed a true LT to protect Ben.  Marvel Smith and Big Al were good, not great. The Steelers have not had a great LT.  Hopefully now Jones is that and they can add the next great Center in JPJ or Frazier.

 

[rlon]

Knee jerk is anything decisive before year 3 on a QB, IMO, especially with the offensive scheme, the left tackle, and the center positions being what they were. Maybe premature is a better word. That said, if it’s Kenny, Mason, and a project/later draft choice, I see Kenny clearly winning that job and looking more in the regularl season like he looks in pre, this year, as we hoped in 2023. I am far from sold on Mason. I like him as a backup, liked him more than Mitch, but I still believe the Steelers need a QB that can tuck it and go consistently and effective when they need to and to keep defenses honest.

Edited March 3 by rlon

[Steeler Hitman]

1 hour ago, 43M said:

Not sure you understand what "knee jerk" is.

I think that is exactly what most people have toward Pickett  (knee-jerk). Limited results (less than two seasons worth of games played, hurt often, poor OL, poor protection, hit a lot, bad play-calling, bad situational football, yet why is he not Big Ben, Brock Purdy, or any other good QB?  Emotions, he's washed up and is not good because he hasn't looked good.

Pickett has played two seasons in the NFL and has shown no real growth.   

Pickett has actually played in under 32 games and has been hurt in three or four of those games as well.   He has not been set up to for success.  Big Ben actually wasn't set up for success, but was a different type of prospect.  Despite having Big Ben, the Steelers did not go to another SB his best years as a QB and as good as Ben was talent wise, he never took off to the level of Brady, Manning, or Brees. I don't think it was because Ben wasn't good enough, but a lot of that was support on the OL.

I get he had a horrible OC, but it doesn't bode well that a guy like Mason Rudolph came in and looked much better than Pickett has at any point in his NFL career. 

Not an apples to apples comparison.  If Mason of 2023 looked that way in 2019, then the Steelers don't drop their final three games and make the play-offs.  You are comparing a six year veteran to a second year draft pick.  According to the Steelers they had a first round grade on Mason as well. It takes some players time to develop. I get this isn't 1970, but I have said many times that Terry Bradshaw would have been a bust in today's NFL because it took him five years to develop.    

I think if the 49'ers had Pickett, they get similar results as they do with Purdy. If Purdy was in Pittsburgh, he looks  more like Pickett with the tolls and situation the Steelers have for a young QB.  Kenny was just not set up for success.  Mason was ready to be run out of Pittsburgh after the Lions tie a few years ago. Now he plays well in due to injury and as the OL and rushing attack are peaking.

I think your argument is better for a player like Mitch Tribisky rather than Kenny.

Beyond that, many of us on here were not big fans of Pickett coming out.    What he has shown thus far.....it's about what many of us expected from Pickett, perhaps even worse.    

I agree as we talked and felt they should have built some other things up to build around the QB. DL, OT, Center, etc. I was there as well.

I say Pickett's struggles are more the things presented around Pickett than the fact that Pickett is just a bad QB. Time will tell very quickly, but any young QB needs some things to be placed around him to be successful.

Not sure what Watson and Fields have to do with Pickett, either.   Regardless of what you think of those two, Pickett hasn't shown anything to get REALLY excited about.  Sure, he has shown a few flashes, and there is always the remote chance that he proves all the naysayers wrong, but its highly unlikely at this point.   

True, but just a matter of opinion either way. People are calling Bryce Young a bust and he was in the same situation as Kenny.  The fact that CJ Stroud looked so good didn't help either. But the fact of the matter is that the Panthers did not put tools around Young and Stroud over-performed despite an average OL and average defense. No doubt Stroud is good, whether he becomes great will be contingent upon the Texans improving as well.

I could perhaps see him being better this year, but not long term franchise QB better.     If Pickett even progresses into becoming an adequate stop gap, journeyman type starter, I would consider that a success for him. Right now, I think he is looking like the next Christian Ponder.      

I think that Pickett is way more than Ponder, JP, George, etc.  He may never be Big
Ben talent wise, but may actually have some similar success as Ben with a better TEAM around him. I don't see him as a bust and actually think this adversity is going to help propel Pickett.He will be under the microscope, no doubt. I believe he will make plays that he did last preseason, during the regular season.

 

[Ward4HOF]

4 hours ago, 43M said:

 I get he had a horrible OC, but it doesnt bode well that a guy like Mason Rudolph came in and looked much better than Pickett has at any point in his NFL career.     

Ok, so how does Rudolph get a pass for stinking up the joint, for the games he played under Canada as OC, yet lauded for his play starting after Canada was gone, yet while although a small sample size, the 6 qtrs Kenny played after Canada left, showed a vastly better performance.

The worst thing that could have happened for Pickett, did happen.  His back-up's, back-up, got to play a few games after Canada was fired, while Pickett got injured after just 6 quarters...

Would anyone be having this conversation, had Pickett continued to play well, finished the AZ game, possibly adding another 4QC/GWD to his resume, then playing well, again, against the Patriots, thus Mason never getting a shot to play?

As they say, the best ability is availability, especially in this case.  We have no idea how well, or not well, Pickett would've performed if healthy, but signs point to the possibility that Canada's playbook was holding Pickett back, considering he lead the team to a 400+yd output (421yds), the very next game after Canada's firing; the first one since Week 2 of 2020...the season before Canada's tenure? I think that says an awful lot, and pretty much ends any 'chicken or the egg' debate regarding Pickett and Canada.  Canada never had a 400yd game of offense, yet the very next game, Pickett, does.

Edited March 3 by Ward4HOF

[warfelg]

17 hours ago, 3rivers said:

see what the OL is like. If KP has no pass pro, then expect a bad season.  At least he will have a legit OC and most likely decent to good run game, so that all 1helps

 

2 hours ago, Steeler Hitman said:

The teams in the AFC & NFC Championship games had very good OL's. Everyone says QB play, but I would argue it is the OL. 

There two points kind of revert to the same thing for me in team building:

We can’t just pour all the resources into improving just this part of the offense.  If you do that and pay everyone at OL and spend all the high picks, then your QB better be able to elevate the plays of those around him.  I don’t believe in Kenny’s ability to make average guys look good around him.  That’s something Ben could do, which is why when we really invested in the line, the offense looked good.

So you need to look at the OL and say “hey where’s a guy we can “hide” offensively on the line” and know the QB is good enough to make plays when that guy gets exposed.  IMO, OG and RT play this year was good enough that we could have learned if Kenny could do that.  With DJ’s injury we should have been able to learn if he could put the ball in places to make guys look better.

I don’t think I saw either of those out of Kenny this year.  I didn’t see his ability to overcome not having a perfect OL.  I don’t see the ability to make a WR look better than they are.

So yea, a better OL helps.  But not having a QB who has the ability to overcome “not perfect” is killer IMO because it limits your spending and team building ability elsewhere.

[Steeler Hitman]

6 minutes ago, Ward4HOF said:

Ok, so how does Rudolph get a pass for stinking up the joint, for the games he played under Canada as OC, yet lauded for his play starting after Canada was gone, yet while although a small sample size, the 6 qtrs he played after Canada left, showed a vastly better performance.

I agree. I think you have to do an apples to apples comparison. during the heat of the season, you just want to WIN NOW. During the off-season you can objectively look at the reasons and why. To your point, fans have short memories. No one had confidence in Mason during 2019. Even the Steelers tried to resign Landry Jones who had already committed to a contract in the XFL or USFL if I recall. I am happy for Mason's success and I want him back in Pittsburgh.  It took him some time to develop. It is taking Kenny some time to develop.

The worst thing that could have happened for Pickett, did happen.  His back-up's, back-up, got to play a few games after Canada was fired, while Pickett got injured after just 6 quarters...

Throw in the fact that he was the longest tenured QB on the Steelers roster.  Mitch never lived up to what the Steelers hoped would happen. They thought that Mitch just needed a change of scenery. In his limited opportunities and having been an experienced QB who started in Chicago and back-up up Allen in Buffalo, expectations were higher. Although, I never liked the signing and I did not expect Mitch to do much. I formed that opinion after he played more than 26 games though.

Would anyone be having this conversation, had Pickett continued to play well, finished the AZ game, possibly adding another 4QC/GWD to his resume, then playing well, again, against the Patriots, thus Mason never getting a shot to play?

Great point, but the Cardinals game also hurt a lot of people's opinion of Kenny.  He played a good game and then struggled making plays early in that game.  The Steelers should have and could have put Arizona away and made them one-dimensional, but the offenses struggles also caused the defense to be on the field too much. Injuries at ILB and the Cardinals exploited the 5th and 5th team iLBs.

I support Kenny, but this was a game that he did not make enough plays in the first half and it affected the outcome. Then got hurt. 🤷‍♂️

As they say, the best ability is availability, especially in this case. 

No doubt. Also why fans question Kenny.  We've heard the same said about Muth as well.

We have no idea how well, or not well, Pickett would've performed if healthy, but signs point to the possibility that Canada's playbook was holding Pickett back, considering he lead the team to a 400+yd output (421yds), the very next game after Canada's firing; the first one since Week 2 of 2020...the season before Canada's tenure?

Not a coincidence, but as I said above, I think those of us who believe Kenny can be a good QB have to admit his poor play against Arizona hurt.  Not coincidentally, the OL didn't play extremely well either.  After shutting James Connor down in the first half, it was the Cardinals OL who wore down the Steelers defense.

I think that says an awful lot, and pretty much ends any 'chicken or the egg' debate regarding Pickett and Canada.  Canada never had a 400yd game of offense, yet the very next game, Pickett, does.

No doubt the offensive scheme did little for Pickett, Pickens, DJ, Austin, Muth, Mt. Washington, Najee, and Jalen.  The offense has some weapons.  Despite Arthur Smith not being the sexy pick at OC, he may be the answer for building some things around the QB that helps push this offense and team to the next level. 🤷‍♂️

 

[Steeler Hitman]

10 minutes ago, warfelg said:

 

There two points kind of revert to the same thing for me in team building:

We can’t just pour all the resources into improving just this part of the offense.  If you do that and pay everyone at OL and spend all the high picks, then your QB better be able to elevate the plays of those around him.  

I think that they have two free agents in Daniels and Seumola.  Then you draft 1-2 round RT, LT, and Center.

No different than when they had Pouncey, DeCastro, and Gilbert as 1-2 round picks. Unfortunately Gilbert got hurt.
 

I don’t believe in Kenny’s ability to make average guys look good around him.  That’s something Ben could do, which is why when we really invested in the line, the offense looked good.

Ben couldn't do this early on either. He didn't have average tools he had Plaxico and Hines as a rookie at WR and a power run game with Bettis, Duce, and Fast Willie Parker. Ben may still be the worst statistical winning QB in a SB. I love Ben, but people seem to forget that he still needed to develop. He could not carry the team in the early years like he could in 2008 and beyond. Those years 2014-2018 were some serious missed opportunities for the Steelers.

So you need to look at the OL and say “hey where’s a guy we can “hide” offensively on the line” and know the QB is good enough to make plays when that guy gets exposed.  IMO, OG and RT play this year was good enough that we could have learned if Kenny could do that. With DJ’s injury we should have been able to learn if he could put the ball in places to make guys look better.

In a perfect world yes.  However, the scheme was horrible and the OL play was as well. Kenny's pocket presence was horrible and a lot of that had to do with him getting "happy feet."  He has been injured and or concussed in both seasons. It's not like Kenny isn't mobile. He may not be as elusive as Mitch was, but he also isn't a statue in the pocket foot wise.

I don’t think I saw either of those out of Kenny this year.  I didn’t see his ability to overcome not having a perfect OL.  I don’t see the ability to make a WR look better than they are.

You were expecting that from a QB who played less than 16 games his rookie year and has not played 32 yet in TWO years.  Last year was Pickett's second season, not his fifth.  Now he is at a point that he must do it year three.  People don't give QB's enough time to develop. Jordan Love got to sit behind Aaron Rogers. Even Mason played behind Ben. Kenny played behind Mitch and Mason....🤷‍♂️

So yea, a better OL helps.  But not having a QB who has the ability to overcome “not perfect” is killer IMO because it limits your spending and team building ability elsewhere.

After 26 - 27 games in two years with a bad OC, offensive scheme, and OL, how can anyone objectively say that Kenny Pickett is a finished product?  Or he is who he is and can't get better? Kenny has been sacked over 50 times in those games and that's not including the hits, pressures, and hurries not included. The running game has functioned half a year in his two seasons. I am not saying Pickett is going to be the next great Steelers QB. I just don't have enough data and proof to say that he is or is not. Give him a chance. You set your young talent up for success, not expect a rookie or second year guy to "carry the team." The only QB that I saw who could come close to doing that was Peyton Manning. Even Tom Brady was once called "a game manager."  The Patriots had a great defense and always had a good OL.  Sometimes you can learn from the success of others. Kenny owns his stats, but honestly, it all wasn't his fault.

As good as Mason played at the end of the season, I don't think he is as comfortable with the poor OL play and hits he would have taken in the pocket. Mason has gotten dinged up early on in his career as well. I am just trying to get everyone to look at both sides. The glass is actually both half empty and half full. It depends on how you look at it. The late Dr. Winters (a college professor of mine) taught me this in one of his philosophy classes. Remember we also used to say Good Ben and Bad Ben.