BlaqOptic Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 16 minutes ago, Darth Pees said: Yes, that does seem to be the case. In that case, CJ Mosley for DPOY. The fact that you weren't watching Ryan Shazier is inconsequential. Quite literally, the only thing Wagner had on him is less missed tackles which is in large part due to their differing playing styles. Shazier's role was to blow up plays to free up plays for his teammates (yet still leading the team in tackles) where as Wagner's is to read-and-react. That said, Wagner doesn't miss tackles anyway and Shazier would miss tackles even if that wasn't his playstyle. Shazier lead all Lineabackers in Passes Defensed, Interceptions, and Forced Turnovers. He was top 12 in Run Stuffs and Total Tackles. And did so on a Defense that ranked 2nd in Points Per Game, 3rd in Yards per Game, and top 8 in all other metrics despite a lack of talent around him besides Watt, Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt. Oh, and since his loss the Steelers Defense hasn't put up top 10 statistics in any game giving up 39 to the freakin' Ravens. But yeah, tell me again how Shazier wasn't playing at a Defensive Player of the Year level? Or do you not remember your Ravens failing to score more than 9 when he played yet somehow running all over the Steelers despite the only difference in the front 7 being no Shazier? But yeah, somehow in your magical little Ravens fandom he wasn't playing at a DPoTY level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 10 hours ago, m haynes said: I get a laugh out of who's better and if so and so wasn't injured. When you all know that if every team in the NFL were completely healthy. There's not a team on this planet that could beat the Patriots ! So stop with the frigging excuses. The Patriots probably aren't even a Top 5 talented team... If every team is healthy the Eagles, Steelers, Seahawks, Texans, Chiefs, Saints, Cowboys are almost inarguably more talented. Then you have teams like the Chargers, Panthers, Rams, and Falcons who are likely on that same level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 7 minutes ago, BlaqOptic said: The fact that you weren't watching Ryan Shazier is inconsequential. Quite literally, the only thing Wagner had on him is less missed tackles which is in large part due to their differing playing styles. Shazier's role was to blow up plays to free up plays for his teammates (yet still leading the team in tackles) where as Wagner's is to read-and-react. That said, Wagner doesn't miss tackles anyway and Shazier would miss tackles even if that wasn't his playstyle. Shazier lead all Lineabackers in Passes Defensed, Interceptions, and Forced Turnovers. He was top 12 in Run Stuffs and Total Tackles. And did so on a Defense that ranked 2nd in Points Per Game, 3rd in Yards per Game, and top 8 in all other metrics despite a lack of talent around him besides Watt, Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt. Oh, and since his loss the Steelers Defense hasn't put up top 10 statistics in any game giving up 39 to the freakin' Ravens. But yeah, tell me again how Shazier wasn't playing at a Defensive Player of the Year level? Or do you not remember your Ravens failing to score more than 9 when he played yet somehow running all over the Steelers despite the only difference in the front 7 being no Shazier? But yeah, somehow in your magical little Ravens fandom he wasn't playing at a DPoTY level... At the very least, the bolded is all objectively inaccurate. But it is cute watching Steelers fans try to scrounge up any statistic they can find to make a case for Shazier being DPOY. My favorite was that he lacks talent around him, other than him and 4/11 of the defense, so besides half of the defense, they lack talent! Classic. Like I said, Bobby Wagner is objectively playing at a higher level and he's still probably not the front runner for DPOY after the Rams game. If we also want to bring up "oh well X team did Y when he was out!" how about the Jags scoring on 3 straight plays after Wagner left the game with a hamstring injury, while before that putting up a total of 3 points? Everyone can do that. "Top 12 in total run stuffs and total tackles", do you know who leads the league in total tackles? Bobby Wagner. And being top 12 in a couple of categories isn't a strong argument for saying "this guy is the best!". Quite the opposite, actually. And wow Shazier has one more INT than Wagner, crazy! Wagner has 1.5 more sacks than Shazier, despite Shazier being a blitzing, attacking linebacker. Like I said, it's just homerism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmad Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 15 minutes ago, BlaqOptic said: The fact that you weren't watching Ryan Shazier is inconsequential. Quite literally, the only thing Wagner had on him is less missed tackles which is in large part due to their differing playing styles. Shazier's role was to blow up plays to free up plays for his teammates (yet still leading the team in tackles) where as Wagner's is to read-and-react. That said, Wagner doesn't miss tackles anyway and Shazier would miss tackles even if that wasn't his playstyle. Shazier lead all Lineabackers in Passes Defensed, Interceptions, and Forced Turnovers. He was top 12 in Run Stuffs and Total Tackles. And did so on a Defense that ranked 2nd in Points Per Game, 3rd in Yards per Game, and top 8 in all other metrics despite a lack of talent around him besides Watt, Heyward, Hargrave and Tuitt. Oh, and since his loss the Steelers Defense hasn't put up top 10 statistics in any game giving up 39 to the freakin' Ravens. But yeah, tell me again how Shazier wasn't playing at a Defensive Player of the Year level? Or do you not remember your Ravens failing to score more than 9 when he played yet somehow running all over the Steelers despite the only difference in the front 7 being no Shazier? But yeah, somehow in your magical little Ravens fandom he wasn't playing at a DPoTY level... One player can make a massive impact on defense, but not a 30 points difference... Plus the ravens have obviously improved on offense since their first game. Ryan Shazier wasn't a DPOY candidate compared to guys like Jalen Ramsey or Calais Campbell or *Insert defensive player with good stats* He was playing at a high level but I wouldn't consider him a DPOY candiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, Darth Pees said: At the very least, the bolded is all objectively inaccurate. But it is cute watching Steelers fans try to scrounge up any statistic they can find to make a case for Shazier being DPOY. My favorite was that he lacks talent around him, other than him and 4/11 of the defense, so besides half of the defense, they lack talent! Classic. Like I said, Bobby Wagner is objectively playing at a higher level and he's still probably not the front runner for DPOY after the Rams game. If we also want to bring up "oh well X team did Y when he was out!" how about the Jags scoring on 3 straight plays after Wagner left the game with a hamstring injury, while before that putting up a total of 3 points? Everyone can do that. "Top 12 in total run stuffs and total tackles", do you know who leads the league in total tackles? Bobby Wagner. And being top 12 in a couple of categories isn't a strong argument for saying "this guy is the best!". Quite the opposite, actually. And wow Shazier has one more INT than Wagner, crazy! Wagner has 1.5 more sacks than Shazier, despite Shazier being a blitzing, attacking linebacker. Like I said, it's just homerism. I'm sorry, but it would become much easier if you actually weren't just talking out of your ***. But you are very clearly uneducated on the matter so I don't even know why I would continue to give you the time of the matter. Please tell me how the red is "objectively inaccurate" when he, quite literally, still leads all Linebackers in Passes Defensed despite not playing for the last 11 quarters. The fact that you couldn't even do the research before making that comment pretty much proves your ignorance on the matter. Secondly, I don't think you understand what "half" means because you're very much stretching at this point. Quite literally 4/11 is 36%, nowhere near statistically close to 50%. Beyond that, Hargrave and Watt are rotational players and the latter has huge strides to make. But go ahead... Keep going and demonstrating how little you actually know about the Steelers Defense. There's no point in even continuing because you're proving that you don't even watch the two play so why would I even continue making the argument with you? But I'm sure you'll tell me how much you "watch" the two despite the underlined/bolded comment... Like if you really wanted me to believe that you knew what you were talking about and weren't just making bullcrap up, you wouldn't say something that couldn't be further from the truth. LMFAO at Shazier has been a "blitzing" linebacker this year... Literally the 5th most used pass rusher at the LB position on the team this year but he's a "blitzer." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 5/11 is basically half, Blaq. Unless we're saying Shazier isn't talented, or you can't count. Not sure which one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqOptic Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, Darth Pees said: 5/11 is basically half, Blaq. Unless we're saying Shazier isn't talented, or you can't count. Not sure which one... You're right... Context doesn't matter since you know... we were talking about the players around him and two are rotational players this year. Hell, actually Tuitt's been rotational this year since Week 2 as well. But you're right. As with anything in life, there's no point in arguing with someone who will look facts in the eye and call them false (or objectively wrong) and pretend the guys' role is the opposite of what it's been this year. You're right, Darth and I'll just stop arguing with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 Neither Shazier or Wagner were going to win DPoY anyhow. It would take an unreal type of year for any ILB to win DpoY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 Leave it to FF for a DPOY debate to be labelled as an AB injury thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 1 hour ago, JustAnotherFan said: Neither Shazier or Wagner were going to win DPoY anyhow. It would take an unreal type of year for any ILB to win DpoY. I don’t think Kuechly’s DPOY seasons were “unreal”, but I guess that depends on your definition of unreal. It wasn’t a GOAT season or anything like that. I’d say it takes elite play on a good-great defense and also a down year for pass rushers, who typically get the nod if they produce sacks (and aren’t pure specialists like Beasley last year). DBs have it even rougher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 10 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: I don’t think Kuechly’s DPOY seasons were “unreal”, but I guess that depends on your definition of unreal. It wasn’t a GOAT season or anything like that. I’d say it takes elite play on a good-great defense and also a down year for pass rushers, who typically get the nod if they produce sacks (and aren’t pure specialists like Beasley last year). DBs have it even rougher. Kuechly' is a MLB in a 4-3 defense not an ILB on a 3-4 defense. edit: primary alignment. edit 2 since I couldn't finish: To keep it short. The player assignments between a MLB and ILB are totally different. Especially when it comes to DPOY. A MLB is put in better position at a higher rate to rack up more fancy stats than a ILB is. That's just the nature of the position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 8 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: Kuechly' is a MLB in a 4-3 defense not an ILB on a 3-4 defense. edit: primary alignment. Neither is Wagner. You believe that discrepancy matters in the eyes of the voters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensDefense3 Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 The best ILBs in football are Kuechly and Wagner, Shazier and a few other players are in the tier below them. Aaron Donald will probably win it though, Calais Campbell, Jalen Ramsey, and Xavier Rhodes are also very deserving candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: Neither is Wagner. You believe that discrepancy matters in the eyes of the voters? In Carroll's hybrid scheme Wagner is a essentially an ILB and does not play the role of a traditional MLB. And yes, that discrepancy does matter in the eyes of the voters. They will almost always vote for pass-rushers first. I'm not saying that I agree with it because I don't and I never have but that's just the way it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 2 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said: In Carroll's hybrid scheme Wagner is a essentially an ILB and does not play the role of a traditional MLB. And yes, that discrepancy does matter in the eyes of the voters. They will almost always vote for pass-rushers first. I'm not saying that I agree with it because I don't and I never have but that's just the way it is now. That’s not what I asked. I asked if you believe the discrepancy of 4-3 MLB vs 3-4 ILB is a relevant factor for the voters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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