Who deserves more blame Hue or Kizer?

[Kathouse Sticks]

35 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

To jump in on this Kessler debate, I think it certainly appears as if he regressed, but I'm not sure about that at this point.

Hue has been doing what Hue wants to do regardless of what's best all season.  When Kessler comes into the game I'm sure he's running the same all vertical route nonsense he does with Kizer, who at least has the skillset to run it.

Kessler is, and always was, a guy who needed to be in a WCO as opposed to this uber agreesive Air Coryell stuff Hue is running. Kessler has a middling arm and seems hesitant to test defenses deep, but he did appear capable of making a read or two and throwing the ball accurately.

Hue seemly has no interest in catering to a player's particular skills and this is where we stand.

And this is a very sore point with me. I’m going to sound like Wayne Woodrow Hayes, here.  “Now fellas, l do not understand it.”  These guys are NFL players and if they are good football players, they should be able to play for any coach or scheme. But why a coach would not recognize their strengths and weaknesses and then coach them to what they do best is beyond me. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. Are coaches just being that stubborn that they have to prove that their system works?  Even if it means it will ultimately get them fired?  That’s crazy as hell, according to Coach Madea. You have to give Bellicheck his due. Now granted, he has a great QB, but it seems like he gets more out of less than anybody. And that’s a mark of a good coach.

So my question is, why would Hue NOT coach to his players strengths?  

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

22 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

And this is a very sore point with me. I’m going to sound like Wayne Woodrow Hayes, here.  “Now fellas, l do not understand it.”  These guys are NFL players and if they are good football players, they should be able to play for any coach or scheme. But why a coach would not recognize their strengths and weaknesses and then coach them to what they do best is beyond me. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. Are coaches just being that stubborn that they have to prove that their system works?  Even if it means it will ultimately get them fired?  That’s crazy as hell, according to Coach Madea. You have to give Bellicheck his due. Now granted, he has a great QB, but it seems like he gets more out of less than anybody. And that’s a mark of a good coach.

So my question is, why would Hue NOT coach to his players strengths?  

He has a strong conviction that his scheme is the best option.

I get it to some degree, everyone has preferences, but at some point you need to be able to blend your preferences with the talent provided.

I think it's long been proven that any scheme can be highly successful wco, air Coryell, 4-3, 3-4, it doesn't matter if you run it well and you have the talent to make it work.

What doesn't work is trying to pound square pegs into round holes out of a belief that scheme is more important than anything else.

[Bonanza23]

10 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

He never played with the first team, it was Brock and then Kizer. Sure he completed 65% of his preseason passes to scrubs not good enough to beat out the Kenny Britt and Ricardo Louis' of the world but those are just stats that mean nothing because they only put production into numbers.

What has Kizer done to prove he was or is a better option? We don't have to talk about stats because there isn't one that favors him besides rushing so what does he do that makes him a better option? Accurately throws 1 out of 3 passes downfield? Maybe 4. Makes half of his intermediate throws uncatchable or requires circus catches? Commands a huddle? Shows less accuracy on the short passes than Kessler? No poise in pressure situations or in the red zone? He does certainly keep our FG kicker fresh, I'll give him that.

Kizer has an NFL arm. Kizer doesn't contest his coach.

That is it.

Kessler probably doesn't have a future as a starter but he is a hell of a lot better NFL QB than Kizer is. If Kizer was ready with his better tools then yeah starting Kizer makes sense. If Kizer plays like, well, Kizer then no there is no reason to play him unless you are trying to lose every game.

Kizer looked the part in preseason and I had no issue with him starting. Since then he looked like the broken Derek Anderson. Hard to win with a turnover machine. Especially one that throws for fewer touchdowns per attempt than the noodle armed Kessler did last year. With the added 2 turnovers per game thrown in.

So no, I'm not buying that Kizer was or is the better choice because Kessler has a rough preseason where he threw for 65% completions and no picks in 46 attempts (only 1 TD). Or maybe we should talk about practice being the reason he was never given a shot to start a preseason game this year. That is when it really matters not the actual games where he showed he could keep us in the majority of his starts.

 

Again I’m going by what I see with my eyes. Kizer moved the team in the preseason better than both Kessler and buttweiler. Also in the regular season. Constant three and outs with Kessler. Btw we ran a more horizontal offense when Kessler was in there. It was ineffective because teams have learned how to completely shut him down. I’m sorry but Kizer was the best looking of the three piles of poop. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

29 minutes ago, Bonanza23 said:

Again I’m going by what I see with my eyes. Kizer moved the team in the preseason better than both Kessler and buttweiler. Also in the regular season. Constant three and outs with Kessler. Btw we ran a more horizontal offense when Kessler was in there. It was ineffective because teams have learned how to completely shut him down. I’m sorry but Kizer was the best looking of the three piles of poop. 

Kesslers biggest issue that I've noticed this year is he's been holding the ball forever and isn't making hot reads.  

When he's pressured he's like a deer in headlights, he's become completely gun shy.

[MWil23]

3 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Kesslers biggest issue that I've noticed this year is he's been holding the ball forever and isn't making hot reads.  

When he's pressured he's like a deer in headlights, he's become completely gun shy.

Kessler looks like that guy back in the day in the arcade game "NFL Blitz" where you would run a goal-line defense and the "Blitz" play and he'd have absolutely no answer for it.

[dawgdish]

1 hour ago, Bonanza23 said:

Again I’m going by what I see with my eyes. Kizer moved the team in the preseason better than both Kessler and buttweiler. Also in the regular season. Constant three and outs with Kessler. Btw we ran a more horizontal offense when Kessler was in there. It was ineffective because teams have learned how to completely shut him down. I’m sorry but Kizer was the best looking of the three piles of poop. 

Yep, completely agree. Sucks that our previous GM put us in that position at QB.

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

Yep, completely agree. Sucks that our previous GM put us in that position at QB.

It sucks that Osweiler ended up being the worst of the lot considering 13 months before we would have LOVED to have signed him in free agency.

It sucks that our "QB Whisperer" was trusted so much in the process.

It sucks that we can't "Just trust me" when it comes to Hue Jackson.

[Bonanza23]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

It sucks that Osweiler ended up being the worst of the lot considering 13 months before we would have LOVED to have signed him in free agency.

It sucks that our "QB Whisperer" was trusted so much in the process.

It sucks that we can't "Just trust me" when it comes to Hue Jackson.

I actually wouldn’t have liked it. I liked him a little out of college, but I didn’t think he was very good when he was “good”. 

[Bonanza23]

6 minutes ago, dawgdish said:

Yep, completely agree. Sucks that our previous GM put us in that position at QB.

I honestly can’t argue this. One of the things Sashi didn’t do well, yet. 

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, Bonanza23 said:

I actually wouldn’t have liked it. I liked him a little out of college, but I didn’t think he was very good when he was “good”. 

But I bet you didn't think that he'd be THIS BAD. Maybe you did tough.

[Bonanza23]

1 hour ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Kesslers biggest issue that I've noticed this year is he's been holding the ball forever and isn't making hot reads.  

When he's pressured he's like a deer in headlights, he's become completely gun shy.

Agree. 

[Bonanza23]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

But I bet you didn't think that he'd be THIS BAD. Maybe you did tough.

No not as bad as he was here. Holy crap no   I thought he’d at least be somewhat serviceable. 

[MWil23]

Just now, Bonanza23 said:

No not as bad as he was here. Holy crap no   I thought he’d at least be somewhat serviceable. 

Honestly same here. This is what I was expecting when we got him:

The Browns get a 2nd rounder, take on his salary, and get a QB who throws for 3,200 yards, 15 TD and 18 INT in 16 games, leads us to a 5-11 record.

2018, the Browns use 1 of their 1sts/maybe even the second that they got to either draft/move up into the draft and get their QBOTF.

WOW how wrong I was.

[Bonanza23]

6 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Honestly same here. This is what I was expecting when we got him:

The Browns get a 2nd rounder, take on his salary, and get a QB who throws for 3,200 yards, 15 TD and 18 INT in 16 games, leads us to a 5-11 record.

2018, the Browns use 1 of their 1sts/maybe even the second that they got to either draft/move up into the draft and get their QBOTF.

WOW how wrong I was.

That’s just about what I was thinking too. 

[DaWg_LB.]

I'll boil it down like this......Sunday we had the ball punted and downed inside or 6 yard line 4 times yesterday. The first time time we ran the ball and the offense procuded a 95 yard TD drive....the three following times we went shotgun and passed. We went 3 and out, 3 and out, and sack/fumble/TD.......This is the clearest indication that this kid is being set up to completely fall face first on his ***. Hue made bad calls...period...point blank.

I am going to watch the game this weekend.....if we do not get the win, over the bears, I will be 100% convinced that Hue Jackson cannot beat an NFL level coach unless he has Overwhelming Veteran talent and depth advantage over the team he's coaching against....

And everyone know's in here I am one of the Biggest Hue Jackson supporters........but what I saw Sunday, was a man who will not adjust his system to fit his talent....and REFUSES to do anything different than continue to try and pound square pegs into round holes.....AND getting pissed off as to why they wont fit....