Jaguars send 4 players to Pro Bowl

[pwny]

50 minutes ago, Jaguarfan said:

I saw the promise in this team back in 2007. "this team is ten years away"- actual quote 

I said something about the Gabbert pick setting us back 6 years. And here we are, 6 years later.

[Jags]

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000896463/article/nfl-execs-weigh-in-on-yearend-awards-plus-five-big-questions

 

It looks like Calais Campbell for DMVP is becoming more and more popular. 

[LinderFournette]

I credit Campbell for getting ngakoue on the next level as well as fowler.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

4 hours ago, LinderFournette said:

I credit Campbell for getting ngakoue on the next level as well as fowler.

Its crazy how much better both have gotten

[LinderFournette]

4 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Its crazy how much better both have gotten

part of their success has to be attributed to the fact campbell is Providing the most edge pressure we've had from the big end.  i also think part of it has to be for fowler having another year off the acl injury so hes way more confident and healed with that injury but hes still kinda rubbish as a true outside pass rusher compared to nagkoue who you dont have to scheme into pressures. 

[pwny]

I honestly don’t think Fowler is that much better than he was. The staff just figured out how to use a player with straight line speed and limited pass rush moves; you put him against unathletic players who aren’t used to facing speed pass rushers. Plus getting him on the field in those race car packages where CC and Malik are inside and Yan is on the other end, he’s getting one on one matchups with those non-athletes basically every time they want to get him in those sets. He’d still be a 2-4 sack player if they kept trying to line him up on left tackles with chipping TEa all year, but because they’re letting him play against guards and right tackles, he’s able to get to a place that be might reach a double digit sack total. I think it’s more the staff finally figuring out how to play matchups than development from Fowler.

 

You can definitely see how much Yan has developed though. He benefits from these easier looks too, but he’s also learning to consistently beat high end pass blockers.

[.Buzz]

1 minute ago, iPwn said:

I honestly don’t think Fowler is that much better than he was. The staff just figured out how to use a player with straight line speed and limited pass rush moves; you put him against unathletic players who aren’t used to facing speed pass rushers. Plus getting him on the field in those race car packages where CC and Malik are inside and Yan is on the other end, he’s getting one on one matchups with those non-athletes basically every time they want to get him in those sets. He’d still be a 2-4 sack player if they kept trying to line him up on left tackles with chipping TEa all year, but because they’re letting him play against guards and right tackles, he’s able to get to a place that be might reach a double digit sack total. I think it’s more the staff finally figuring out how to play matchups than development from Fowler.

 

You can definitely see how much Yan has developed though. He benefits from these easier looks too, but he’s also learning to consistently beat high end pass blockers.

Ehh, Fowler seems to have more moves than before. Hasn't looked to me like he strictly tries to use his athleticism Everytime to just try and get by a guy.

As for the RT thing, you know guys like Bosa, Von Miller, etc. get lined up on the RT pretty much the entire game, right? You seem to want to bash Fowler and his production because he's on the right side a lot but most elite edges in football get lined up there. This isn't to say Fowler is amazing or our best edge rusher (obviously Yan is way better), but most teams line up their top pass rushers on the right side. Never see anyone bashing those guys for racking up sacks/production because of that.

[pwny]

7 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

You seem to want to bash Fowler and his production because he's on the right side a lot

Somehow we’ve hit a point that if I’m not 100% positive with what the coaching staff, it’s viewed as me being too critical. But if I point out the staff doing something well to get better production out of a player, it’s treated as if I’m bashing the player. That’s fun.

[Tugboat]

39 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

Ehh, Fowler seems to have more moves than before. Hasn't looked to me like he strictly tries to use his athleticism Everytime to just try and get by a guy.

As for the RT thing, you know guys like Bosa, Von Miller, etc. get lined up on the RT pretty much the entire game, right? You seem to want to bash Fowler and his production because he's on the right side a lot but most elite edges in football get lined up there. This isn't to say Fowler is amazing or our best edge rusher (obviously Yan is way better), but most teams line up their top pass rushers on the right side. Never see anyone bashing those guys for racking up sacks/production because of that.

Yeah.  I do think Fowler has improved from where he was as a pass rusher.  But it is still about getting him in the situations to succeed, which they've actually been doing.  There's just nothing really wrong with that though...so long as it's getting results.

It's what he did in college that got him on the radar of so many teams/scouts/etc in the first place.  He was always sort of a "projection pick" because he really wasn't just a line up and go every down edge rusher at Florida.  They moved him...to where he could use not only the speed, but he has a surprising amount of power and a real violence and effort to what he does well.  He'll never ever be mistaken for a finesse rusher or a "technician", and i wouldn't even really call him a pure "speed rusher".  But he has a skillset that can get him after the QB, and that's absolutely still a nice thing to have...even if it's not the dominant prototype edge presence you may want out of a pick that high.

[.Buzz]

48 minutes ago, iPwn said:

Somehow we’ve hit a point that if I’m not 100% positive with what the coaching staff, it’s viewed as me being too critical. But if I point out the staff doing something well to get better production out of a player, it’s treated as if I’m bashing the player. That’s fun.

We've had arguments about Fowler for a few years now. 

In your post you said that you don't think he's really developed but more so the staff just putting him in a spot to succeed. Not sure how that isn't negating the player unless I'm missing something. It's fine if you are, but I don't get why I can't disagree with you and post reasons why without getting viewed as it being an attack. 

 

[.Buzz]

24 minutes ago, Tugboat said:

Yeah.  I do think Fowler has improved from where he was as a pass rusher.  But it is still about getting him in the situations to succeed, which they've actually been doing.  There's just nothing really wrong with that though...so long as it's getting results.

It's what he did in college that got him on the radar of so many teams/scouts/etc in the first place.  He was always sort of a "projection pick" because he really wasn't just a line up and go every down edge rusher at Florida.  They moved him...to where he could use not only the speed, but he has a surprising amount of power and a real violence and effort to what he does well.  He'll never ever be mistaken for a finesse rusher or a "technician", and i wouldn't even really call him a pure "speed rusher".  But he has a skillset that can get him after the QB, and that's absolutely still a nice thing to have...even if it's not the dominant prototype edge presence you may want out of a pick that high.

Without a doubt, and that's a big plus on the coaching staff. Deservedly so. Just very much disagree with the notion that there hasn't been much development by Fowler but more so just how he's been used.

I also really hate the notion of a guy being primarily lined up against RT's which for some reason puts an asterisk by Fowler's production. As I said, most of the NFLs elite pass rushers line up on the RT. Whenever Fowler is brought up in discussing production that comes up. Yet we never hear it when talking about all the guys who are elite pass rushers who are primarily lined up on that side too. 

I seriously don't think I've ever seen Von Miller lined up on a LT honestly.

[pwny]

10 hours ago, .Buzz said:

I also really hate the notion of a guy being primarily lined up against RT's which for some reason puts an asterisk by Fowler's production. As I said, most of the NFLs elite pass rushers line up on the RT. Whenever Fowler is brought up in discussing production that comes up. Yet we never hear it when talking about all the guys who are elite pass rushers who are primarily lined up on that side too. 

Part of what I’m trying to say with this is that he’s getting easier looks than a lot of guys. When a Guard goes to help on a double team, or a TE stays in or chips, or when a RB goes out to chip in the middle of a route, those blocks are almost always directed at CC, Malik or Yan. Fowler is being put into spots that he’s getting one on ones with the worst pass blocker on an OL basically any time the staff decides to run a race car front. Von definitely benefitted from that some in that 2015 run when Wolfe, Malik and Ware were drawing defensive attention, but he was also the one that chips and doubles were given to more than others. And now he receives them even more. So yes, he’s lining up at LOLB, but it’s not simple one on ones like Fowler is getting.

This whole context thing started earlier in the season when Yan had 6.5 sacks and Fowler had 5.5. Or whatever they were where it was super close. People started making the argument that Fowler was better than Yan because he had gotten to 5.5 in significantly less snaps than Yan had taken to get to 6.5.

So I have - since then - felt like I need to continue to give context for this. Yan, CC and Miller are all drawing double teams and playing against better pass blockers. It’s benefitting everyone because you can’t double everyone every play, so when they decide to double Malik, it gives way for Yan and CC to beat single teams, and so forth. It’s largely why once CC had those monster games, he went much more quiet but then Malik and Yan started exploding with sacks, as teams started doubling him a lot more than even before. But Fowler is almost always seeing the singles and almost always being placed against the worst pass blocker when he’s in.

I guess I want that context because some fans have started to act as if Fowler is as good or better than some of the other guys on the DL. And just..at this point, it’s not particularly close. CC, Yan, Malik, then there’s a sizable gap before we get to Fowler as a pass rusher. And that’s not necessarily a knock on Fowler, because CC is probably the best DE1 in football this year, Yan is probably the best DE2 in football this year, and Malik may be DT3 or thereabouts. 

I just don’t think he’s developed much as a player this year. I think he’s benefitted by being a great niche talent to attack a very specific weakness in teams. I also think it’s a bad idea if the plan post-CC is to go Fowler at LE all game too. So that’s part of what I’m trying to get across too.

[.Buzz]

9 minutes ago, iPwn said:

Part of what I’m trying to say with this is that he’s getting easier looks than a lot of guys. When a Guard goes to help on a double team, or a TE stays in or chips, or when a RB goes out to chip in the middle of a route, those blocks are almost always directed at CC, Malik or Yan. Fowler is being put into spots that he’s getting one on ones with the worst pass blocker on an OL basically any time the staff decides to run a race car front. Von definitely benefitted from that some in that 2015 run when Wolfe, Malik and Ware were drawing defensive attention, but he was also the one that chips and doubles were given to more than others. And now he receives them even more. So yes, he’s lining up at LOLB, but it’s not simple one on ones like Fowler is getting.

This whole context thing started earlier in the season when Yan had 6.5 sacks and Fowler had 5.5. Or whatever they were where it was super close. People started making the argument that Fowler was better than Yan because he had gotten to 5.5 in significantly less snaps than Yan had taken to get to 6.5.

So I have - since then - felt like I need to continue to give context for this. Yan, CC and Miller are all drawing double teams and playing against better pass blockers. It’s benefitting everyone because you can’t double everyone every play, so when they decide to double Malik, it gives way for Yan and CC to beat single teams, and so forth. It’s largely why once CC had those monster games, he went much more quiet but then Malik and Yan started exploding with sacks, as teams started doubling him a lot more than even before. But Fowler is almost always seeing the singles and almost always being placed against the worst pass blocker when he’s in.

I guess I want that context because some fans have started to act as if Fowler is as good or better than some of the other guys on the DL. And just..at this point, it’s not particularly close. CC, Yan, Malik, then there’s a sizable gap before we get to Fowler as a pass rusher. And that’s not necessarily a knock on Fowler, because CC is probably the best DE1 in football this year, Yan is probably the best DE2 in football this year, and Malik may be DT3 or thereabouts. 

I just don’t think he’s developed much as a player this year. I think he’s benefitted by being a great niche talent to attack a very specific weakness in teams. I also think it’s a bad idea if the plan post-CC is to go Fowler at LE all game too. So that’s part of what I’m trying to get across too.

Gotcha. That makes more sense.

Fowler isn't close to Yan as a pass rushers. No argument there. I wouldn't feel comfortable as him being the primary pass rushers with what we've seen thus far. Yannick on the other hand is a different story.

I'm just happy because I do see some development from the guy. This time last year most of us (hell, even I was feeling not so great about Fowler becoming a legit part of this defense) felt the guy had very little to give. 

Now, he seems to be on the right track (on and off the field) and seems to be improving. I will say the past few weeks haven't been as impressive as early on this year though. Not sure if he's battling something or what.

[pwny]

21 minutes ago, .Buzz said:

I'm just happy

I just want to pull this part out. Because for whatever the difference in view of him, I’m not dissatisfied with this situation. I’m absolutely happy that they’ve found a way to get 7.5 sacks out of our 5th best DL (probably 4th as a pure pass rusher), and out of a player that I don’t think is particularly good.

It’s a sign of a good team when role players and niche players start being able to make impacts in big ways because of the players around them. The Adailus Thomas effect. And quite honestly, it’s great to finally be a team benefitting from the role player in a niche, rather than being the team that spends big money on the role player because they think he’s actually a star.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

On 12/24/2017 at 1:19 PM, iPwn said:

I just want to pull this part out. Because for whatever the difference in view of him, I’m not dissatisfied with this situation. I’m absolutely happy that they’ve found a way to get 7.5 sacks out of our 5th best DL (probably 4th as a pure pass rusher), and out of a player that I don’t think is particularly good.

It’s a sign of a good team when role players and niche players start being able to make impacts in big ways because of the players around them. The Adailus Thomas effect. And quite honestly, it’s great to finally be a team benefitting from the role player in a niche, rather than being the team that spends big money on the role player because they think he’s actually a star.

Adalius Thomas? Now that’s a name I haven’t heard in forever