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Which career would you rather have? Dan Marino or Eli Manning?


Which career would you rather have?  

40 members have voted

  1. 1. Which career are you taking?

    • Dan Marino
      12
    • Eli Manning
      29


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21 hours ago, Malik said:

Eli Manning was a high level contributor to 2 Championships. That's what puts him over-the-top. If he was like Jim Plunkett then you obviously take Dan Marino

I'd argue Plunketts 1980 postseason run was actually quite impressive. 1983 he was more along for the ride. He always comes up in Eli threads because they both have 2 rings and both finished with a regular season career .500 winning percentage. But it's his stats that have kept him out of the HOF despite the Championship runs. 164 passing TDS vs 198 INTS. Eli was never elite but finished with 366/244. But then people bring up the eras and rule changes etc. Truth is Plunkett should probably be in the HOF if you align to the "Can you tell the story of the NFL without this person" theory to the HOF and not the "Was this person elite" theory. 

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On 6/10/2024 at 2:21 PM, AngusMcFife said:

Lots of posters here are content being mediocre at their job and receiving all the credit when their coworkers do great things. The Eli Manning way.

This is a stupid comment.

Eli wasn’t a mediocre QB for most of his career. He wasn’t elite, but in his better years he flirted with top 6-7 and was probably a top 9-13 guy for the majority of the rest. He had two of the most impressive postseason runs of all time for a QB. There’s a zero percent chance you watched the 07 and 11 postseason runs and came away with “yep, Eli was carried”. 

I’m not out there saying he willed a bad team to a championship either. Those Giants teams got hot at the right time, twice, despite some so-so regular season performances. 

On 6/10/2024 at 2:21 PM, AngusMcFife said:

What ever happened to striving to be the best? Challenge yourself to truly excel at what you do, and don't worry about externalities that are out of your control. Maybe your teammates will win you Super Bowls, or let you down, but don't let that affect your own pursuit of greatness. 

You aren’t “striving to be the best” in this scenario. Their careers are already set in stone, we’re choosing their careers, not which archetype we’re aiming for. If the question was, “who would you rather be to start their careers”, the answer is much more likely Marino. But it’s not. There’s no goals, there’s no measures of confidence or pursuit of greatness. You just pick their careers. This is like asking someone “would you rather play it safe and hit a game winning double, or swing for the fences but absolutely miss”. 

Whether you prioritize being a great individual player on a team that never wins it all vs being a good individual player on teams that do win it all, is subjective. But neither of your comments made any sense.

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1 hour ago, Soko said:

This is a stupid comment.

Eli wasn’t a mediocre QB for most of his career. He wasn’t elite, but in his better years he flirted with top 6-7 and was probably a top 9-13 guy for the majority of the rest. He had two of the most impressive postseason runs of all time for a QB. There’s a zero percent chance you watched the 07 and 11 postseason runs and came away with “yep, Eli was carried”. 

Eli's career passer rating was 84.1.

The NFL average passer rating was 82.8 in Eli's first year (2004) and 90.8 in his last (2019). 

Eli was below the league average passer rating from 2004-2007, 2013, and 2016-2019, while only above league average from 2008-2012, and in 2014-15.

So 9 years he was below league average, and 7 years he was above it. Below average for most years of his career. He was never above 93.6 passer rating.

Sorry but you'll have to do a bit more to convince me he was anything more than an average QB. 

 

Quote

He had two of the most impressive postseason runs of all time for a QB. There’s a zero percent chance you watched the 07 and 11 postseason runs and came away with “yep, Eli was carried”. 

Points scored by Eli in his post-season runs:

24 (185 yards passing)
21 (165 yards passing)
21 (251 yards in 40 attempts)
17

24
37 (his one good game)
20 (316 yards in 58 attempts)
21

These are mostly average games. He was in the low 20s with mediocre production except for one game. Sorry I'm not impressed. To class these runs along with Montana, Flacco is not accurate.

 

Quote

I’m not out there saying he willed a bad team to a championship either. Those Giants teams got hot at the right time, twice, despite some so-so regular season performances. 

You aren’t “striving to be the best” in this scenario. Their careers are already set in stone, we’re choosing their careers, not which archetype we’re aiming for. If the question was, “who would you rather be to start their careers”, the answer is much more likely Marino. But it’s not. There’s no goals, there’s no measures of confidence or pursuit of greatness. You just pick their careers. This is like asking someone “would you rather play it safe and hit a game winning double, or swing for the fences but absolutely miss”.

Your analogy shows how poorly you understand my perspective. Part of someone's career is how well they played and how they measured up to their peers. Marino was pathbreaking and dominant, and Eli was average but carried by his defense to two championships.

I would much rather pursue excellence and have my peers recognize me as excellent rather than my peers see me as mediocre and lucky. Dan Marino can sit at a table with Elway, Montana, Favre, Brady and they will recognize him as one of them, someone who truly excelled. Eli would be considered a joke to them, just another average player.

Quote

Whether you prioritize being a great individual player on a team that never wins it all vs being a good individual player on teams that do win it all, is subjective. But neither of your comments made any sense.

I agree there is a subjective element to this. But I don't agree my response is nonsensical. And you'll have to do some work to prove Eli was anything better than mediocre.

Edited by AngusMcFife
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21 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Eli's career passer rating was 84.1.

The NFL average passer rating was 82.8 in Eli's first year (2004) and 90.8 in his last (2019). 

Eli was below the league average passer rating from 2004-2007, 2013, and 2016-2019, while only above league average from 2008-2012, and in 2014-15.

So 9 years he was below league average, and 7 years he was above it. Below average for most years of his career. He was never above 93.6 passer rating.

Sorry but you'll have to do a bit more to convince me he was anything more than an average QB. 

So what you’re saying is, for largely a 10 year period of his prime (sans 2013 where he and the offense was legitimately bad), he was a good QB that occasionally flirted into the top 7ish, but largely found himself in the 9-13 range? Thanks for that.

21 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Points scored by Eli in his post-season runs:

24 (185 yards passing)
21 (165 yards passing)
21 (251 yards in 40 attempts)
17

24
37 (his one good game)
20 (316 yards in 58 attempts)
21

These are mostly average games. He was in the low 20s with mediocre production except for one game. Sorry I'm not impressed. To class these runs along with Montana, Flacco is absurd.

Hmmm, so we went from using passer rating as our measurement of success, but then when we look to the postseason, it’s offensive points scored? 

Not surprised, tbh.

21 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Your analogy shows how poorly you understand my perspective. Part of someone's career is how well they played and how they measured up to their peers. Marino was pathbreaking and dominant, and Eli was average but carried by his defense to two championships.

I would much rather pursue excellence and have my peers recognize me as excellent rather than my peers see me as mediocre and lucky. Dan Marino can sit at a table with Elway, Montana, Favre, Brady and they will recognize him as one of them, someone who truly excelled. Eli would be considered a joke to them, just another average player.

Sigh. 

You aren’t pursuing excellence in a predetermined path. You’re choosing between two careers that have already ended - there’s nothing to pursue.

If you want to say that you’d rather be an individually great player that never wins instead of being a good player that does twice, then that’s cool. But your angle of “pursuing greatness” just doesn’t make sense in a topic where there’s nothing to pursue.

21 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

I agree there is a subjective element to this. But I don't agree my response is nonsensical. And you'll have to do some work to prove Eli was anything better than mediocre.

Your response is nonsensical because you equated Eli to being a mediocre player that was carried (which, even if you don’t put his postseason runs in the all-time category, absolutely cannot be labeled as him being carried) and the whole “pursuing greatness” bit. We’re choosing two final outcomes, there’s no pursuit. You choosing Marino in order to be able to sit at the all-time table, that’s entirely fine.

If anything, Peyton has a much bigger argument to being carried to two championships than Eli. This is probably the first time I’ve defended Eli since I’ve posted here (already said he shouldn’t be a HOFer), Christ…

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6 minutes ago, Soko said:

So what you’re saying is, for largely a 10 year period of his prime (sans 2013 where he and the offense was legitimately bad), he was a good QB that occasionally flirted into the top 7ish, but largely found himself in the 9-13 range? Thanks for that.

So you going to make broad sweeping assertions about a player, and when I put up evidence contrary to that, you misinterpret the stats I provide instead of providing any yourself.

The highest Eli ever ranked was 7th in passer rating, and that was one year. This is you:

Quote

He wasn’t elite, but in his better years he flirted with top 6-7

Eli's passer rating ranking in his BEST years:

2008: 15
2009: 11
2010: 17
2011: 7
2012: 14
2014: 15
2013: 13

This shows what a joke your argument is. These are Eli's BEST years, the one's you hold up as his absolute prime, and you are saying he is fliting with top 6-7?

Just admit that are BS-ing and are making things up to suit your argument.

Quote

Hmmm, so we went from using passer rating as our measurement of success, but then when we look to the postseason, it’s offensive points scored? 

Not surprised, tbh.

Why don't you show some evidence to prove your point? I don't have unlimited time to post every single stat. I'm digging these stats up, and you just make up lies. You are arguing in bad faith.

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24 minutes ago, Soko said:

You aren’t pursuing excellence in a predetermined path. You’re choosing between two careers that have already ended - there’s nothing to pursue.

If you want to say that you’d rather be an individually great player that never wins instead of being a good player that does twice, then that’s cool. But your angle of “pursuing greatness” just doesn’t make sense in a topic where there’s nothing to pursue.

We’re choosing two final outcomes, there’s no pursuit. You choosing Marino in order to be able to sit at the all-time table, that’s entirely fine.

Unfortunately this analysis is abominable. Who you are at the end the pursuit is conditioned by your memory of the pursuit as it happened. I am not simply claiming the money, stats, and money accumulated by the player and the end of his career, but I am imagining what is what like to experience that playing career.

The idea that having a gold jacket or Super Bowl ring is meaningful just because you own it is incredibly stupid. Those are meaningful because the player remembers playing and dominating, and those accolades symbolize or represent that experience.  

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38 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

So you going to make broad sweeping assertions about a player, and when I put up evidence contrary to that, you misinterpret the stats I provide instead of providing any yourself.

The highest Eli ever ranked was 7th in passer rating, and that was one year. This is you:

Your argument for Eli not flirting with being 6-7th in his best seasons, is to provide a year where he was 7th in passer rating? Bold strategy there, Cotton.

38 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Eli's passer rating ranking in his BEST years:

2008: 15
2009: 11
2010: 17
2011: 7
2012: 14
2014: 15
2013: 13

This shows what a joke your argument is. These are Eli's BEST years, the one's you hold up as his absolute prime, and you are saying he is fliting with top 6-7?

Just admit that are BS-ing and are making things up to suit your argument.

No, I didn’t say he was near top 6-7 throughout his prime. I said in his best years, maybe 2 or 3 to be more specific. I never said he was 6-7th throughout his prime.

38 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Why don't you show some evidence to prove your point? I don't have unlimited time to post every single stat. I'm digging these stats up, and you just make up lies. You are arguing in bad faith.

 

To highlight why it’s dumb to cherry pick, sure thing. I’ll just reverse the stats you used in where you used them.

To your postseason point, here are Eli’s passer ratings in 07/08:

117.1 @ TB, top 3 defense that year, 9-7.

132.4 @ Dallas, top 10 defense that year, 13-3.

72.0 @ GB, top 10 defense that year and in the snow, 13-3.

87.3 vs NE, top 5 defense that year, and the vaunted 18-0.

Here is 11/12: 

129.3 @ Atlanta, top 15 defense that year, 10-6.

114.5 @ GB, horrific pass defense that year, 15-1.

82.2 @ SF, top 3 defense that year, 13-3.

103.7 vs NE, horrific pass defense that year, 13-3.

I don’t have or know where to find average passer ratings by postseason, league wide. But I think it’s a safe argument that most of those passer ratings in the postseason are well above average and way above mediocre.

Now, to your team offense/points Eli scored, here is Eli’s prime:

2007: 14th in PF, 11th in passing TDs.

2008: 3rd in PF, 11th in passing TDs.

2009: 8th in PF, 8th in TDs.

2010: 7th in PF, 4th in TDs. 

2011: 9th in PF, 6th in TDs.

2012: 6th in PF, 9th in TDs.

2013: 28th in PF, 21st in TDs.

2014: 13th in PF, 9th in TDs. 

2015: 6th in PF, 3rd in TDs.

2016: 26th in PF, 11th in TDs. 

Average placement: 12th in PF, 9th in TDs.

Earlier you used passer rating average to say Eli’s been mediocre in the regular season, and then used points to say his postseason games have been average. So if you flip that, what do we get? Mostly great postseason games (from a passer rating perspective) against elite teams and mostly good defenses, and mostly good points (average placement 9th in TDs) throughout his prime. This is why cherry picking doesn’t work.

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47 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Unfortunately this analysis is abominable. Who you are at the end the pursuit is conditioned by your memory of the pursuit as it happened. I am not simply claiming the money, stats, and money accumulated by the player and the end of his career, but I am imagining what is what like to experience that playing career.

Lmao, alright dude. It’s not an analysis, it’s speaking factually: we are choosing predetermined paths that we know the outcome of. You can imagine it however you want - we know for a fact that if you pick Marino, you never win a ring. Just like we know for a fact that if you pick Eli, you never become an all-time great. It’s not really a “chase” when you’re outright picking HOF/all-time status vs rings/money. Being famous might matter more to you, while winning and money matters more to others, it is what it is. But there’s no pursuit when the outcome is known. You get it, or you don’t. Marino gets status, Eli gets wins/money.

EDIT: Rereading my post, I see why you think/thought that I was saying that we’re choosing between Eli/Marino today, as in their legacies. No, the journey is in there too. What I was saying is that by choosing Marino, you are guaranteed all-time status, and guaranteed no rings. With Eli, the opposite plus money. So yes, you are experiencing the ride, but it’s not a pursuit if you know the outcome. If you pick Marino, you will be an all-timer, and never a champion. If you pick Eli, you will be a champion (twice), but never an all-timer. 

I think if you’d ask players today, “would you rather be a top 5-7 all time at your position with $50M (starting ~240 games) and never win, or be a fringe HOFer with two rings, two SB MVPs, and $250M (starting 240~) games”, the latter would win in a landslide.

47 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

The idea that having a gold jacket or Super Bowl ring is meaningful just because you own it is incredibly stupid. Those are meaningful because the player remembers playing and dominating, and those accolades symbolize or represent that experience.  

Agreed, which is why I’d choose SB rings over a jacket (although I believe Eli wrongfully gets one anyway). The experience of winning it twice (especially against 18-0) would matter more to me than an MVP award (obviously hypothetical) and status. It’s fine to prefer the opposite.

No one said…whatever you’re insinuating, though.

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It’s funny because @AngusMcFife and @Soko keep telling each other they are arguing in bad faith and have terrible arguments etc but neither of you bozos realize you’re both making great points and it’s been a damn good read. 

I voted Marino instinctively before reading the thread and waffled back and forth about 16 times before I was done.  

The money thing is the biggest factor in my mind, but then I wonder - would you rather be Marino or Cousins?

Feels like money should be excluded from the hypothetical, but then I do think it would shift dramatically more to Marino. 

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