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Last Games in a Packer Uniform - 2017 Edition


TheOnlyThing

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45 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

My God.  You're 100% certain an UDFA could throw for 8/10 TD/INT and win and lead two game winning overtime games?  The Hundley hate is worse than I thought.  I recognize the username Charisma, and that's a compliment, so it's worse than I ever imagined around here on the Hundley hate.

You're 100% certain an UDFA could have a 65 yard punt return next year?  My God, something strange is happening this draft. 

You're 100% certain an UDFA could have 21 receptions for 238 yards with a backup QB starting over 7 games in a season?  My God, Allison must be the worst 4th string WR in the league.

You're 100% certain an undrafted free agent could get 3 sacks next year?  My God, Fackrell must be the worst 4th string pass rusher in the league.

Seriously guys, the hyperbole on the Packer hate has to stop.  I dislike Fackrell more than anybody here and even I know he's an extremely valuable player based on his contract as a depth player.  This hate is absolutely G-Damn ridiculous.  Charisma, you're better than such hyperbole.

The hate of the Packer roster has to stop.  It's a crappy year and that sucks, but the hate is too much right now.  I'm in the mood to hate literally everything right now and even I'm aware that every single player on our roster, if cut, would find a home on another 53 for 32 other teams right now. 

Yes. I think an undrafted free agent QB has a better chance to not ruin an entire season than Hundley. I’ll take a card from the pile over Hundley at this point. I agree, he had moments. But theres nothing nice to be said about Hundley at this point. All of his production was Adams being a badass. All his wins were the defense creating turnovers and the ground game moving the chains. I think the majority would agree with that.

I am 100% positive that me, personally, could do a better job handling punt returns than Trevor Davis did when it comes to decision making. He had one key return that was full of bad tackling and that’s it. He was the.worst.returner. since Bill Schroeder. I don’t understand why Cobb isn’t back there.

With Allison, hell yeah any NFL WR could have 21 receptions as a 4th WR. Opportunity plus Talent equals Statistics. Statistics do not equal Talent. Absolutely nothing special there. No traits of value that can’t be found on every NFL practice squad right now. 

Yes, Fackrell sucks. He doesn’t bend the edge. He can’t blow guys over. Again, I will take a card from the pile over that. Just like people thought Datone Jones was good because he had a tiny bit of statistics. No, he was horrible too. You can give any NFL caliber athlete that much opportunity and he’s gonna fall into some production. Erik Walden and Jones both made a boat load of money simply by having the opportunity to be on the field previously.

Its not hyperbole. It’s strategy. There’s zero guarantee the replacements will be better. But I like the odds of a random UDFA to hit better than the odds those guys improving, because they’ve been given every opportunity to improve and haven’t.

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15 minutes ago, ChaRisMa said:

Yes. I think an undrafted free agent QB has a better chance to not ruin an entire season than Hundley. I’ll take a card from the pile over Hundley at this point. I agree, he had moments. But theres nothing nice to be said about Hundley at this point. All of his production was Adams being a badass. All his wins were the defense creating turnovers and the ground game moving the chains. I think the majority would agree with that.

I am 100% positive that me, personally, could do a better job handling punt returns than Trevor Davis did when it comes to decision making. He had one key return that was full of bad tackling and that’s it. He was the.worst.returner. since Bill Schroeder. I don’t understand why Cobb isn’t back there.

With Allison, hell yeah any NFL WR could have 21 receptions as a 4th WR. Opportunity plus Talent equals Statistics. Statistics do not equal Talent. Absolutely nothing special there. No traits of value that can’t be found on every NFL practice squad right now. 

Yes, Fackrell sucks. He doesn’t bend the edge. He can’t blow guys over. Again, I will take a card from the pile over that. Just like people thought Datone Jones was good because he had a tiny bit of statistics. No, he was horrible too. You can give any NFL caliber athlete that much opportunity and he’s gonna fall into some production. Erik Walden and Jones both made a boat load of money simply by having the opportunity to be on the field previously.

Its not hyperbole. It’s strategy. There’s zero guarantee the replacements will be better. But I like the odds of a random UDFA to hit better than the odds those guys improving, because they’ve been given every opportunity to improve and haven’t.

Can' say I disagree with any of your rationale here.

My only issue is Hundley.  I agree he has been disappointing in the 3 year development in the system.  I feel part of that falls on MM.  Seems to me like he is expecting Hundley to play like Rodgers, and not calling things that can play to some things that Hundley can execute well.  

More outside read option.  Off that, some read option sprint out with a go, deep corner or backside post; sprint side comeback, backside crossing route.

For an offensive minded coach, knowing what a 3rd year QB can execute well should be evident.

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51 minutes ago, ChaRisMa said:

Yes. I think an undrafted free agent QB has a better chance to not ruin an entire season than Hundley. I’ll take a card from the pile over Hundley at this point. I agree, he had moments. But theres nothing nice to be said about Hundley at this point. All of his production was Adams being a badass. All his wins were the defense creating turnovers and the ground game moving the chains. I think the majority would agree with that.

I am 100% positive that me, personally, could do a better job handling punt returns than Trevor Davis did when it comes to decision making. He had one key return that was full of bad tackling and that’s it. He was the.worst.returner. since Bill Schroeder. I don’t understand why Cobb isn’t back there.

With Allison, hell yeah any NFL WR could have 21 receptions as a 4th WR. Opportunity plus Talent equals Statistics. Statistics do not equal Talent. Absolutely nothing special there. No traits of value that can’t be found on every NFL practice squad right now. 

Yes, Fackrell sucks. He doesn’t bend the edge. He can’t blow guys over. Again, I will take a card from the pile over that. Just like people thought Datone Jones was good because he had a tiny bit of statistics. No, he was horrible too. You can give any NFL caliber athlete that much opportunity and he’s gonna fall into some production. Erik Walden and Jones both made a boat load of money simply by having the opportunity to be on the field previously.

Its not hyperbole. It’s strategy. There’s zero guarantee the replacements will be better. But I like the odds of a random UDFA to hit better than the odds those guys improving, because they’ve been given every opportunity to improve and haven’t.

UDFAs suck too man.

All these players were at best 4th string. If they're playing a lot, you'll be bad.

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1 hour ago, squire12 said:

Can' say I disagree with any of your rationale here.

My only issue is Hundley.  I agree he has been disappointing in the 3 year development in the system.  I feel part of that falls on MM.  Seems to me like he is expecting Hundley to play like Rodgers, and not calling things that can play to some things that Hundley can execute well.  

More outside read option.  Off that, some read option sprint out with a go, deep corner or backside post; sprint side comeback, backside crossing route.

For an offensive minded coach, knowing what a 3rd year QB can execute well should be evident.

I agree that MM deserves blame for Hundley. As does TT. As does Edgar Bennett. 

But we can’t have a completely different offense either. We will continue to give Rodgers all the #1 unit practice snaps and tailoring the offense around him. The problem isn’t that Hundley doesn’t understand the plays. He clearly knows what others are supposed to do. It’s all his execution.

Hundley’s deep ball is atrocious. His decision making is awful. He’s missing easy throws. His release is average. He isn’t hitting guys on roll outs. Nothing ever comes of him keeping plays alive with good footwork other than scrambles, which is not a way to live. His outs don’t have zip. This guy can’t play. I give him credit for improving his pocket awareness over the season, but there’s just no reason to think after three years he will change. He stinks.  

I think MM tried to manage games with his legs and intelligence. Problem is, for example, on a RPO, he throws the pass, which is a good choice. But the release isn’t fast, the ball isn’t thrown in a way that’s conducive with getting up field, and the arm strength doesn’t get the ball there quick either. So by the time Jordy has the ball, the defense has already measured him up for the tackle instead of still flowing to the ball. Next thing you know, Jordy looks washed up, and it’s 2nd and 8.

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1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

UDFAs suck too man.

All these players were at best 4th string. If they're playing a lot, you'll be bad.

Of course UDFAs suck. But right now we’re discussing holding onto $1 or taking what’s in the mystery box. Sure, the $1 has value, but if there’s a 1 in 50 chance the mystery box has a Ben Franklin in it, I’ll take the chance.

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1 hour ago, ChaRisMa said:

I agree that MM deserves blame for Hundley. As does TT. As does Edgar Bennett. 

But we can’t have a completely different offense either. We will continue to give Rodgers all the #1 unit practice snaps and tailoring the offense around him. The problem isn’t that Hundley doesn’t understand the plays. He clearly knows what others are supposed to do. It’s all his execution.

Hundley’s deep ball is atrocious. His decision making is awful. He’s missing easy throws. His release is average. He isn’t hitting guys on roll outs. Nothing ever comes of him keeping plays alive with good footwork other than scrambles, which is not a way to live. His outs don’t have zip. This guy can’t play. I give him credit for improving his pocket awareness over the season, but there’s just no reason to think after three years he will change. He stinks.  

I think MM tried to manage games with his legs and intelligence. Problem is, for example, on a RPO, he throws the pass, which is a good choice. But the release isn’t fast, the ball isn’t thrown in a way that’s conducive with getting up field, and the arm strength doesn’t get the ball there quick either. So by the time Jordy has the ball, the defense has already measured him up for the tackle instead of still flowing to the ball. Next thing you know, Jordy looks washed up, and it’s 2nd and 8.

Again, I agree with you on Hundley being easily replaceable.

Your group of 5 players, 2 are 5th round picks, 1 a UDFA.  

Rollins is a former 2nd round pick, coming off an Achilles tear who likely could not afford to lose any athleticism.  Fair chance Rollins starts on PUP in 2018. 

Fackrell,  a former 3rd round pick that was older as a rookie to begin with, has shown little in his reps the majority of the time.  His possible advantage in staying around for 2018 is GB needs pass rushers in the worst possible way.

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Hundley was a 5th round pick so I don't know what we were expecting here.   Unless some kid beats him out this summer he'll be back backing up AR.   It would be nice to have a vet QB but I want Ted and company to spend our cap improving this roster and to fix this damn defense instead.

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1 hour ago, ChaRisMa said:

Of course UDFAs suck. But right now we’re discussing holding onto $1 or taking what’s in the mystery box. Sure, the $1 has value, but if there’s a 1 in 50 chance the mystery box has a Ben Franklin in it, I’ll take the chance.

It's not that simple.  This is the NFL, not mystery box shopping at... Toys R Us?  Who sells mystery boxes? 

Kyler Fackrell has more physical tools and experience than literally any UDFA you can find available next year. 

Same thing with literally every other player you mentioned with the possible exception of Allison. 

We have had the pick of the litter in UDFA for the last 5-ish years due to how many UDFA we keep on the roster.  How many times have undrafted free agents played like third year pros in their first year?  Once.  Sam Shields.  If you really think that any UDFA is going to be as good as what the players you mentioned will be for us next year...


 

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54 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

It's not that simple.  This is the NFL, not mystery box shopping at... Toys R Us?  Who sells mystery boxes? 

Kyler Fackrell has more physical tools and experience than literally any UDFA you can find available next year. 

Same thing with literally every other player you mentioned with the possible exception of Allison. 

We have had the pick of the litter in UDFA for the last 5-ish years due to how many UDFA we keep on the roster.  How many times have undrafted free agents played like third year pros in their first year?  Once.  Sam Shields.  If you really think that any UDFA is going to be as good as what the players you mentioned will be for us next year...


 

No. I’m saying those guys are busts and it’s time to turn the page and even an UDFA would have as good or better of a shot at being an improvement next year.

Weve given them all enough time to prove they can produce like we need them to and they have definitely not.

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Just now, ChaRisMa said:

No. I’m saying those guys are busts and it’s time to turn the page and even an UDFA would have as good or better of a shot at being an improvement next year.

Yeah, and I'm saying that there won't be a single undrafted free agent that would be as good as third year Davis, third year Fackrell, fourth year Hundley, fourth year Rollins and third year Allison.

You yourself can't think otherwise.  Allison was an undrafted free agent himself.  What you're saying is like saying that we'd be better off with Geronimo Allison as a rookie again next year.  It just doesn't make any sense. 

I get not wanting anything to do with those players going forward, but it doesn't make any sense to suggest that you're 100% certain UDFA would do more than they would next year and I really don't know why you keep digging a hole with this argument. 

It's an argument that is easily proven wrong.  Exactly six players have a longer punt return than Davis this year.  5th, 4th, 5th, 7th, 6th round draft picks.  There's one that was an undrafted free agent, and he's in his second year.  Trevor Davis is 12th in the league in punt return yards.  Trevor Davis is 5th in the NFL in punt return average and 6th in the NFL in kick return average and you're saying that any undrafted free agent can come in and be an improvement on him and I'm sorry, but when are you just going to admit that you're wrong? 

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19 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Yeah, and I'm saying that there won't be a single undrafted free agent that would be as good as third year Davis, third year Fackrell, fourth year Hundley, fourth year Rollins and third year Allison.

You yourself can't think otherwise.  Allison was an undrafted free agent himself.  What you're saying is like saying that we'd be better off with Geronimo Allison as a rookie again next year.  It just doesn't make any sense. 

I get not wanting anything to do with those players going forward, but it doesn't make any sense to suggest that you're 100% certain UDFA would do more than they would next year and I really don't know why you keep digging a hole with this argument. 

It's an argument that is easily proven wrong.  Exactly six players have a longer punt return than Davis this year.  5th, 4th, 5th, 7th, 6th round draft picks.  There's one that was an undrafted free agent, and he's in his second year.  Trevor Davis is 12th in the league in punt return yards.  Trevor Davis is 5th in the NFL in punt return average and 6th in the NFL in kick return average and you're saying that any undrafted free agent can come in and be an improvement on him and I'm sorry, but when are you just going to admit that you're wrong? 

Okay let’s forget about the specific players for a moment, and get on terms we agree on here.

Say a player has played 3 full NFL seasons, produced very little, and has no interesting traits. You know that player stinks, right?

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Just now, ChaRisMa said:

Say a player has played 3 full NFL seasons, produced very little, and has no interesting traits. You know that player stinks, right?

Totally.  So glad we gave up on Jordy Nelson. 

Which of the players you mentioned has no interesting traits?  Hundley has two overtime wins and 7/1 TD/INT on the road.  Fackrell has 5 career sacks and a couple of very good plays.  Davis is 5th/6th in the NFL in PR/KR average.  The only player out of the ones you mentioned that meets your own description is Allison, and as a third year UDFA, he's going to do more for us NEXT YEAR than any UDFA will. 

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15 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Totally.  So glad we gave up on Jordy Nelson. 

Which of the players you mentioned has no interesting traits?  Hundley has two overtime wins and 7/1 TD/INT on the road.  Fackrell has 5 career sacks and a couple of very good plays.  Davis is 5th/6th in the NFL in PR/KR average.  The only player out of the ones you mentioned that meets your own description is Allison, and as a third year UDFA, he's going to do more for us NEXT YEAR than any UDFA will. 

Okay, not ignoring the second paragraph. Trying to see where our thinking differs here.

So we agree a player who's played 3 full seasons, produced very little, and has no interesting traits does indeed stink.

I'll assume you agree there is a small chance that any particular UDFA will not stink because you've already given me one previously in Shields.

So if a player stinks, why wouldn't I at least put a UDFA there who has a small chance not to stink? We can debate whether or not specific players stink next if you'd like. I just want to be sure you are following my logic.

Player A is a known bust.

Player B has a small chance to not be a bust. 

Player B is the better option, right?

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