Week 5: Ravens @ Bengals (complaints are back on the menu)

[AngusMcFife]

If y'all think the secondary is bad with Williams and Stephens in the secondary, wait until you see what Orr does with a bunch a scrubs and JAGs. The grass isn't always greener.

[AngusMcFife]

Ravens points by week

20
23
28
35
41

That's a nice trend.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

If y'all think the secondary is bad with Williams and Stephens in the secondary, wait until you see what Orr does with a bunch a scrubs and JAGs. The grass isn't always greener.

It literally cannot get any worse than Williams right now, and if we're running with a scrub in his place at least we save the cap and can use that money elsewhere. Stephens is fine, anyone expecting our CB2 to cover JaMarr Chase 1v1 the whole game is insane. No CB in the NFL outside of maybe 2-3 guys can do that. That's a schematic issue.

Williams' issues are all just a "he sucks" issue.

Go and watch any TD or big play and find where Marcus Williams is and I guarantee you he's either:

• A step behind where he should be
• Communication mistake where his teammate is expecting his help and he's not there
• Running around covering nothing while someone runs uncovered right past him

[AngusMcFife]

33 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

It literally cannot get any worse than Williams right now, and if we're running with a scrub in his place at least we save the cap and can use that money elsewhere. Stephens is fine, anyone expecting our CB2 to cover JaMarr Chase 1v1 the whole game is insane. No CB in the NFL outside of maybe 2-3 guys can do that. That's a schematic issue.

Williams' issues are all just a "he sucks" issue.

Go and watch any TD or big play and find where Marcus Williams is and I guarantee you he's either:

• A step behind where he should be
• Communication mistake where his teammate is expecting his help and he's not there
• Running around covering nothing while someone runs uncovered right past him

But we had the best pass defense in the league last year with Williams as starting FS. How could they have achieved that if he sucks?

The starting players are the same, the coaches are different.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, AngusMcFife said:

But we had the best pass defense in the league last year with Williams as starting FS. How could they have achieved that if he sucks?

The starting players are the same, the coaches are different.

Williams wasn't good last year, either. We just dominated in many other areas to cover up for it. Now we aren't dominating in those areas and suddenly his decline is more exposed.

Williams is primarily playing as a deep safety and our defense has given up by far the most explosive plays in the NFL.

There are 2 really good examples of why he sucks from yesterday's game:

• The TD pass to Tee Higgins late in the 3rd quarter from the 2 yard line, where Eddie Jackson was communicating with Wiliams pre-snap that he had inside help with Higgins. At the snap, Jackson plays outside shade, Higgins runs a slant, and Williams leaves Higgins wide open for an easy touchdown.
• The TD pass to Chase on the screen play. Williams overruns the play, then stands and watches while Chase runs by him, displaying not only horrible pursuit but also a complete unwillingness to tackle or even try to tackle.

This is on top of the numerous blown coverages he's had OR plays where he's too slow to get anywhere to help (think of the Iosivas long reception, Williams is 3 steps too late to break up this play despite the pass being in the air for like 33 seconds).

[wackywabbit]

2 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

But we had the best pass defense in the league last year with Williams as starting FS. How could they have achieved that if he sucks?

The starting players are the same, the coaches are different.

Players don't play at a flat level year to year. Some (like Humphrey and Stanley) are playing better than last year.

[AngusMcFife]

Maybe Williams has massively declined, but I see a poorly coached secondary with communication problems and players not really sure where they are supposed to be or what they are supposed to do. It's an across the board decline, which is why I blame the coaching primarily.

And it makes sense to do so. The only coach on staff who has any experience coordinating a defense is the secondary coach Doug Mallory, who was a college DC over 10 years ago, and only for a couple years.

This staff might be the most inexperienced defensive staff in the league, that's no hyperbole.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

56 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

Maybe Williams has massively declined, but I see a poorly coached secondary with communication problems and players not really sure where they are supposed to be or what they are supposed to do. It's an across the board decline, which is why I blame the coaching primarily.

And it makes sense to do so. The only coach on staff who has any experience coordinating a defense is the secondary coach Doug Mallory, who was a college DC over 10 years ago, and only for a couple years.

This staff might be the most inexperienced defensive staff in the league, that's no hyperbole.

Kyle Hamilton, Marlon Humphrey and (for the most part) Brandon Stephens are all playing at a high level, along with Ar'Darius Washington being really solid as well.

Marlon is notably better than last year, too, but that's IMO because he's now healthy and dropped some weight to be more fluid and fast.

Marcus Williams was bad last year and is bad this year, but because our defense isn't historically good his issues aren't being hidden.

[Ray Reed]

Yeah, @AngusMcFife, I have to call you out a bit here. 

Orr hasn’t been good at all. But go back to the Dolphins game thread from 2 years ago when we lost that 21 point lead with MacDonald as a first year DC and you said the exact same things you’re saying about Orr now.

You questioned his qualifications/experience, said Harbaugh only hires people due to nepotism, etc.

Harbaugh has proven time and time again that way more often than not his coordinator hirings are really really solid if not great. Hell look at Monken heading this offense right now.

I think we need more time for Orr to acclimate. MacDonald was the same way.

[AngusMcFife]

19 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Yeah, @AngusMcFife, I have to call you out a bit here. 

Orr hasn’t been good at all. But go back to the Dolphins game thread from 2 years ago when we lost that 21 point lead with MacDonald as a first year DC and you said the exact same things you’re saying about Orr now.

You questioned his qualifications/experience, said Harbaugh only hires people due to nepotism, etc.

But at least MacDonald went down to Michigan for a year to get DC experience before becoming an NFL DC at age 34.

Orr has 0 experience coordinating and became DC at 31. Literally nobody else on the staff has any coordinating experience except our DB coach was a college DC for like 1 season over 10 years ago. I think its fair to say there isn't a single coach on the staff who has proven they can coordinate a defense. At least MacDonald could lean on veteran coaches like Anthony Weaver, Harbaugh has left the cupboard complete bare for a 31 year old to cut his teeth in the NFL. 

If Orr is having problems, who does he go to for advice/counsel? Who in the building can say they've been in his shoes?
 

Quote

Harbaugh has proven time and time again that way more often than not his coordinator hirings are really really solid if not great. Hell look at Monken heading this offense right now.

I think we need more time for Orr to acclimate. MacDonald was the same way.

I'm just not sure about that. As far as the DC hirings go, I would rank them thusly:

Greg Mattison. F - Just wasn't an NFL mind. Wasn't even good as a college DC.
Pagano. A - Great for one year.
Dean Pees. B- - He was fine but was bad in late-game scenarios. He got the ring but once Ray and Ed left the defense changed for the worse.
Wink. C+ - his blitz heavy style was easily dissected by top QBs and smart OCs, but worked fine playing bad teams that we could build a lead against.
MacDonald - A - Boy genius got poached unfortunately. 
Orr - TBD.

So IMO Pagano and MacDonald were excellent, Pees and Wink were fine but nothing special, and Mattison sucked.

If you want to talk offense

Cam Cameron - B+ - a solid OC.
Caldwell - D - he somehow got a ring OCing Cameron's offense but the 2013 was one of the worst run offenses ever and was let go.
Kubiak - A+ - god of Ravens OC
Mark Trestman - F - he really sucked
Marty Morningweg - C - he's a run of the mill OC, not bad but not great either
Greg Roman - B- - He did some nice things early on but obviously he's massively deficient in pass game concepts.
Monken - A- - He's the second best OC ever after Kubiak.

To me this is a mixed bag. I'm just not sure Harbaugh can survive this latest brain drain. I can't intrinsically trust a man who installed Mark Trestman as OC or Greg Mattison at DC is . He's made plenty of horrible hires and I have a long memory.

[AngusMcFife]

1 hour ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Kyle Hamilton, Marlon Humphrey and (for the most part) Brandon Stephens are all playing at a high level, along with Ar'Darius Washington being really solid as well.

Marlon is notably better than last year, too, but that's IMO because he's now healthy and dropped some weight to be more fluid and fast.

Marcus Williams was bad last year and is bad this year, but because our defense isn't historically good his issues aren't being hidden.

I guess we just disagree, I think Williams played pretty well last year. It seems he graded out pretty well.

I love the players in our secondary, I just don't think we have any quality defensive coaches left on staff to put them in the right spots or anticipate what kind of calls the offense will make.

The evidence of that is that the entire defensive staff has combined one year of being a college DC in 2011. It's actually incredible how completely lacking the entire staff is in experience.

[AngusMcFife]

OK just to make the point, the credentials of the entire defensive coaching staff as sole coordinator on all levels (college and pros):

2009-2010: DC of New Mexico (Doug Mallory)

 

[wackywabbit]

8 hours ago, AngusMcFife said:

If y'all think the secondary is bad with Williams and Stephens in the secondary, wait until you see what Orr does with a bunch a scrubs and JAGs. The grass isn't always greener.

The case is that we don't just have scrubs and jags as the other options at safety in particular. Ar'Darius Washington has looked much better*. We have Eddie Jackson. And this team has been excellent with younger development players at this position**. Marcus Williams did not come up in the Ravens' system and, while he has shown excellent coverage ability in the past, he probably would have never made his way on to field for playing like a Raven if he was developed here.

* Washington is definitely due for a frustrating unsportsmanlike 15 yard penalty. He does yap and strut after plays 😆

** On this note: I haven't been closely following his career, but the last few years I keep seeing Deshon Elliott pop up on random teams (he's a Steeler now 😱) and he's just making plays. It's so weird looking up that he's been on 4 teams in 4 years now. He's really good at football; he just couldn't stay healthy. Like the defensive JK Dobbins. In another timeline, he's talked about as one of the best at his position and gotten a top of the market deal already.

Edited October 7 by wackywabbit

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

44 minutes ago, wackywabbit said:

The case is that we don't just have scrubs and jags as the other options at safety in particular. Ar'Darius Washington has looked much better*. We have Eddie Jackson. And this team has been excellent with younger development players at this position**. Marcus Williams did not come up in the Ravens' system and, while he has shown excellent coverage ability in the past, he probably would have never made his way on to field for playing like a Raven if he was developed here.

* Washington is definitely due for a frustrating unsportsmanlike 15 yard penalty. He does yap and strut after plays 😆

** On this note: I haven't been closely following his career, but the last few years I keep seeing Deshon Elliott pop up on random teams (he's a Steeler now 😱) and he's just making plays. It's so weird looking up that he's been on 4 teams in 4 years now. He's really good at football; he just couldn't stay healthy. Like the defensive JK Dobbins. In another timeline, he's talked about as one of the best at his position and gotten a top of the market deal already.

Worth noting Deshon Elliott gave up the game-winning touchdown last night.

[wackywabbit]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Worth noting Deshon Elliott gave up the game-winning touchdown last night.

Man... that's a "C" rep at worst.