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Senior Bowl 2018


Mind Character

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Most loaded senior bowl I can remember in a while

talent everywhere 

kinda wish the Georgia RBs would’ve participated but I can understand 

I really like the seniors at receiver but Darren Carrington fan. 

Also want to to hopefully see a center field safety assert himself as a guy that can do the job

we need a free safety so bad

honestly that’s our number 1 need 

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Im always looking for good sites to get info, coverage, scouting, etc... Either way, I recently found one Ive ejoyed quite a bit.  ndtscouting -- Just thought Id throw out a recommendation. You guys have probably already heard of it, but its new to me. And no, I dont work for them or have any affiliation, unless they wanna pay me. Youll find Im quite the willing whore. Any of yous guys got a site you like?

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2 hours ago, brownie man said:

Most loaded senior bowl I can remember in a while

talent everywhere 

kinda wish the Georgia RBs would’ve participated but I can understand 

I really like the seniors at receiver but Darren Carrington fan. 

Also want to to hopefully see a center field safety assert himself as a guy that can do the job

we need a free safety so bad

honestly that’s our number 1 need 

Could not agree more. Best Senior bowl rosters in years. Love it! Excited to watch pasrush drills, my absolute favorite drills. Excited to see Marcus Davenport, Ateman and Washington, Rashaad Penny, Baker Mayfield, Jaleel Scott, Tyquan Lewis, Tyrell Crosby,  and a bunch more CBs, WRs, OL.

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21 minutes ago, Fatgerman said:

Could not agree more. Best Senior bowl rosters in years. Love it! Excited to watch pasrush drills, my absolute favorite drills. Excited to see Marcus Davenport, Ateman and Washington, Rashaad Penny, Baker Mayfield, Jaleel Scott, Tyquan Lewis, Tyrell Crosby,  and a bunch more CBs, WRs, OL.

Pass rush drill is prolly the worst drill to get excited about results tho lol. I would rather see them do a group session of inside runs or a blitz pick up drill

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17 minutes ago, buno67 said:

Pass rush drill is prolly the worst drill to get excited about results tho lol. I would rather see them do a group session of inside runs or a blitz pick up drill

The wins dont matter so much, but you get to really see how they move, which is the whole ballgame. I also love the WR-DB one-on-ones.

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2 minutes ago, Fatgerman said:

The wins dont matter so much, but you get to really see how they move, which is the whole ballgame. I also love the WR-DB one-on-ones.

In those two drills you get a peek at how they move, feet-flexibility-burst, and competitiveness.

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5 hours ago, NudeTayne said:

I know @freakygeniuskid and I are ready with ours. 

Lol..

I don't get how you guys can like Baker over Darnold.

The two games that really tell it all for me are when I watch the cutups of both of their bowl games consecutively.

Many consider it one of Darnold's worst games (I disagree), but even with the fumbles/INTs/near INTs Darnold is just on a different level in terms of QB1 ability.

Darnold makes at least 8 rare nfl throws in the game while Baker makes maybe 2.

The games also exemplify perfectly the pocket duress each have to thrive out of.

You'll all be happy though because buzz out of the Senior Bowl is that Baker has been shaking peoples hands and they're huge.

Reportedly, Dorsey felt the earth move when he shook Baker's hand.

 

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I like Sam Darnold better than Baker Mayfield for sure and I would have a hard time taking any QB #1 overall who is not at least 6'2. With all that being said I do not think it is right to discredit Baker Mayfield as a potential franchise QB. I do not get to watch much college football as in I'm lucky to have time for 1 Ohio State game a year until mid December. I went into the entire process of evaluating players wanting to hate Baker Mayfield because of his douchebaggeriness and childish antics. I heard all the arguments about the Big-12 defenses, his wide open offense, his height and wanted to go along with it all. The more and more I watched I just couldn't write him off. He has everything you want in a franchise QB except the frame.

If I am a team like the Giants, Jets, Redskins, Dolphins or Broncos I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger in the Top 5. I believe Mayfield will be the exception to the rule when it comes to short QBs, but we are the Browns and we are not in that position. We have the pick of the liter and for me the is Sam Darnold right now and will probably remain that way unless something crazy comes up like Sammy snorting coke off a USC cheerleaders ****.

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1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

I don't get how you guys can like Baker over Darnold.

The two games that really tell it all for me are when I watch the cutups of both of their bowl games consecutively.

Two words. Mental Processing.

Everyone assumes Darnold's is going to be fine, just needs time to develop. I hope that's true. I think it might be true. But I don't KNOW that it's true. 

Accuracy and mental quickness are my #1 and #2 traits for evaluating QBs. I like quick releases and dealing with pressure too. But those two are king.

Thus, Rosen and Mayfield is an easy 1a/1b for me. They both are so far ahead of Darnold on the mental side. And that's not his fault per se! Dude has been playing the position for much less time. BUT that doesn't mean he will automatically adjust.

It's like with two sport athletes who commit to baseball after getting drafted out of high school. And a lot of baseball prospects folks (the MLB equivalent of draftniks) will say, "oh, he'll get better now at [insert mental category here] because he has more time to focus on it!" Now, sometimes that's true and they blow up. But sometimes it's not and they fade into obscurity. I think it's the same thing here, having so much less time at QB COULD be a sign that his mental game just needs time to catch up, and I think that's likely. BUT it could also be masking that this is a guy who will just never be elite at making reads and picking apart defenses.

I think people see more "special NFL throws" with Darnold because he throws into tight windows more. Fair point. But Mayfield makes just as many of the same type/distance of throw, he just tends to find more open guys. But that's what you WANT in the NFL! You want to take the easy throws and convert them every single time. Mayfield's mental game is at the point where he finds that open guy with uncanny accuracy on a very high % of his plays. Darnold isn't there yet. And while I THINK he will get to the point Mayfield and Rosen are at now, I just don't KNOW. That's why he's in my #3/4 slot right now despite my liking most everything else about the kid.

Postscript - I don't think using the game where Mayfield is fighting flu, hasn't practiced most of the week, and was clearly physically burnt out by the end of the game as his "one definitive tape" is the most fair thing, maybe playing the same OSU defense as Darnold would be more accurate there. Stats below for comparison:

Sam Darnold vs. OSU - 57.8% cmpl, 356 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT

Baker Mayfield vs. OSU - 77.1% cmpl, 386 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INT

Stats don't tell the whole story. I was very, very impressed with some of Darnold's throws in the OSU game. But let's not act like Mayfield was anything other than exceptional against the same team. Even allowing for supporting cast disparities, that's a tie at worst.

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31 minutes ago, TheeRealDeal said:

I like Sam Darnold better than Baker Mayfield for sure and I would have a hard time taking any QB #1 overall who is not at least 6'2. With all that being said I do not think it is right to discredit Baker Mayfield as a potential franchise QB. I do not get to watch much college football as in I'm lucky to have time for 1 Ohio State game a year until mid December. I went into the entire process of evaluating players wanting to hate Baker Mayfield because of his douchebaggeriness and childish antics. I heard all the arguments about the Big-12 defenses, his wide open offense, his height and wanted to go along with it all. The more and more I watched I just couldn't write him off. He has everything you want in a franchise QB except the frame.

If I am a team like the Giants, Jets, Redskins, Dolphins or Broncos I wouldn't hesitate to pull the trigger in the Top 5. I believe Mayfield will be the exception to the rule when it comes to short QBs, but we are the Browns and we are not in that position. We have the pick of the liter and for me the is Sam Darnold right now and will probably remain that way unless something crazy comes up like Sammy snorting coke off a USC cheerleaders ****.

Oh...I don't discredit Baker at all.

I think he's a great player, and have sung his praises repeatedly...the question at hand for me is "Who's Better...Darnold or Baker"?

It's clear where I fall on that question.

I do disagree that he has everything except for height as he drops his eyes too often against inside and outside pressure and he doesn't have pinpoint accuracy when in the mud.

Still a great prospect worthy of a top 15 selection nonetheless.

 

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22 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

Two words. Mental Processing.

Everyone assumes Darnold's is going to be fine, just needs time to develop. I hope that's true. I think it might be true. But I don't KNOW that it's true. 

Accuracy and mental quickness are my #1 and #2 traits for evaluating QBs. I like quick releases and dealing with pressure too. But those two are king.

Thus, Rosen and Mayfield is an easy 1a/1b for me. They both are so far ahead of Darnold on the mental side. And that's not his fault per se! Dude has been playing the position for much less time. BUT that doesn't mean he will automatically adjust.

It's like with two sport athletes who commit to baseball after getting drafted out of high school. And a lot of baseball prospects folks (the MLB equivalent of draftniks) will say, "oh, he'll get better now at [insert mental category here] because he has more time to focus on it!" Now, sometimes that's true and they blow up. But sometimes it's not and they fade into obscurity. I think it's the same thing here, having so much less time at QB COULD be a sign that his mental game just needs time to catch up, and I think that's likely. BUT it could also be masking that this is a guy who will just never be elite at making reads and picking apart defenses.

I think people see more "special NFL throws" with Darnold because he throws into tight windows more. Fair point. But Mayfield makes just as many of the same type/distance of throw, he just tends to find more open guys. But that's what you WANT in the NFL! You want to take the easy throws and convert them every single time. Mayfield's mental game is at the point where he finds that open guy with uncanny accuracy on a very high % of his plays. Darnold isn't there yet. And while I THINK he will get to the point Mayfield and Rosen are at now, I just don't KNOW. That's why he's in my #3/4 slot right now despite my liking most everything else about the kid.

Postscript - I don't think using the game where Mayfield is fighting flu, hasn't practiced most of the week, and was clearly physically burnt out by the end of the game as his "one definitive tape" is the most fair thing, maybe playing the same OSU defense as Darnold would be more accurate there. Stats below for comparison:

Sam Darnold vs. OSU - 57.8% cmpl, 356 yards, 0 TDs, 1 INT

Baker Mayfield vs. OSU - 77.1% cmpl, 386 yards, 3 TDs, 0 INT

Stats don't tell the whole story. I was very, very impressed with some of Darnold's throws in the OSU game. But let's not act like Mayfield was anything other than exceptional against the same team. Even allowing for supporting cast disparities, that's a tie at worst.

And this is why I love LOVE the scouting and evaluation process as two eyes can look at the same thing and come up with different evaluations completely.

It's even better when those two eyes are people that actually thoughtfully look into stuff.

You make some really good and deep truth points about it being ridiculously wrong to assume a prospect will improve a mental tangible based on focus and time on task.

That's definitely a mistake.

I also agree that maybe we can attribute some stuff to Baker having he flu.

I'm in the Baker Mayfield is definitely worth a top-10-15 pick camp and definitely believe those that criticize his height aren't focusing on the right things in their evaluation and are instead relying on archaic ways of scouting a player's ability.

I just see Rosen as the clear number 1 in terms of processing in its various aspects and dimensions.

However, based on what Darnold does...what is actually on his plate from a scheme and read aspect...I'd actually put him above Baker when it comes to a certain aspect of processing the game versus others.

As stated in a preious thread, "Processing" refers to many different tasks and abilities that probably shouldn't all be thrown in to a general attribute.

Pre-snap versus post-snap "processing" of an RPO is different than Pre-snap versus post-snap processing on a play action, a check with me is different from a sight adjustment hot throw is different from a 1-2 shallow to deep read is different from a pick and stick route read.

Ultimately, the offense limitations placed on Baker IMO mean that based on the film itself Darnold's game is more mature and developed when it comes to many aspects of "processing."

To be fair though, Baker does excel in certain categories and exceed Darnold's abilities as well.

And yes...the OSU stats comp really don't mean anything to me at all without the context of watching the games themselves in which Baker definitely balled out this year albeit to a lesser extent the previous year against OSU.

On 1/17/2018 at 8:51 PM, Mind Character said:

More importantly, when considering how Rosen, Baker, and Darnold stack up in terms of the various dimensions of "processing" ability and prowess there's a lot to consider..........

 

A few things that bear mentioning when it comes to evaluating Baker, Sam, and Rosen and how they "process things":

1. How clear is their pre-snap picture, and how does it help them "read defenses" pre-snap and post-snap.

  • Baker Mayfield and Oklahoma's base offense is primarily 4-Wide Spread followed by a 5-Wide Spread and 3-WR spread formation.. The benefits of this offense are to force the defense to show man to man looks and to spread the defense out thereby creating easier and more wide open passing lanes to throw through. The WRs then also have more room to catch an run.
  • Baker comes to the line knowing where he has 1 on 1 match-ups and knows that if the defense is disguising a zone he has a safety valve via a typically free running TE or RB underneath.
  • In this offense, it is almost always safe to throw deep on the boundary because the Safeties have to provide zone help BETWEEN the hashes in the middle of the field because there are so many threat to attack the defense deep middle or intermediate middle.
  • When this offense has an inside spread WR run routes toward the sideline as in with an intermediate out, the Safety's have to commit...therefore, they are often late to get over the top of boundary receivers.
  • To minimize these threats, the defense plays a safety deep middle which again makes deep boundary throws safe throws.
  • The QB in this system can often catch and immediately release as they don't have to wait for anything to really come open. Worse comes to worse you just take a deep boundary shot quickly.
  • Sam Darnold and USC operate primarily out of tight formations; that is, 3-receiver stacks tight; 3-WRs with 2 tight and 1 wide; followed by TE and WR tight bunch formation with 1 WR.
  • This scheme narrows the passing lanes but has the benefit of causing confusion thereby allowing a receiver to leak out deep middle in or in the seam.
  • This scheme also has the benefit of freeing up Receivers on out breaking timing routes as they have more room to work to the boundary horizontally
  • The issue is that it is harder to ID 1 on 1s, and the QB has to wait for the things to develop or rely more on anticipation ability to make a easy read.
  • This is the worst scheme ever if a team has Offensive line issues, this forces the QB to buy time for the long developing route concepts.
  • The major benefit of this scheme is that it allows one to confuse the defense by moving the QB and the pocket one way via play design in a roll out or sprint out and running multi-directional route combinations another.
  • It thrives on defensive role and assignment confusion and exploits issues in eye discipline and overaggressive of defenders.
  • Doesn't give a lot of easy throws and QBs in this offense often have to buy time to make a big play.
  • The USC offense also uses RPOs to simplify the passing picture for the QB.

2. Post-snap, how often is play-action used to simplify the pass picture?

  • Play action passing, is used to force the defense to declare its responsibilities, open up passing lanes and widen passing windows, gets the defense to declare who's in man coverage and who's in zone, and allow WRs/TEs to separate.
  • Baker Mayfield is in a heavy PA scheme that helps him overcome his height disadvantage by opening up passing lanes. The frequent PA mixed with the spread scheme offer a potent mixture for easier reading and progressions.
  • Sam Darnold's offense is more RPO heavy which is not really play-action but requires pre and post snap cue reading to decide whether to hand the ball off or pull it and make a pinpoint throw away from the defender.

3. What is the nature of their Interceptions/incompletions, and how does it relate to errors in reading/processing defense?

  • Not all INTs are the same. It's important to know whether an INT/incompletion results from a misunderstanding of defense, or in the case of INTs results from trying to make the perfect throw, resulting from a tipped pass, from QB inaccurate underthrow or overthrow, if it happens because of staring down the receiver, if the INT happens because of bad eye processing of where the play is developing, and/or if it happens because of poor footwork.
  • Darnold's turnovers are mainly due to trying to make too much happen and forcing a throw in a tight window, as well as staring down a receiver followed by poor footwork.      

In the end, Josh Rosen is the best at processing the game followed by Lamar Jackson and then Baker and Darnold.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Mind Character said:

Oh...I don't discredit Baker at all.

I think he's a great player, and have sung his praises repeatedly...the question at hand for me is "Who's Better...Darnold or Baker"?

It's clear where I fall on that question.

I do disagree that he has everything except for height as he drops his eyes too often against inside and outside pressure and he doesn't have pinpoint accuracy when in the mud.

Still a great prospect worthy of a top 15 selection nonetheless.

 

Lotta sexual tension in this room. @Mind Character you naughty minx.

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2 hours ago, Fatgerman said:

The wins dont matter so much, but you get to really see how they move, which is the whole ballgame. I also love the WR-DB one-on-ones.

True but to me it’s fake movement. It’s a careless / over confident movement. Situation that happens rarely ever happens in a game. I’ve seen some talented guy just destroy one on one drills and then just get destroyed in games. That’s why game tape will always be the best. So happy we have football guys in the FO who love tape

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