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Raves

CB Eli Apple, New York Giants

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The only news coming out of New York, that I believe, is the record of their teams.

The team has been poorly coached for several years now (basically since Caughlin left), obviously poorly managed, and the talent and attitude within is likely skewed due to some of these factors.

I'll just wait for the coaches & scouts to watch film, and then the results of the interview process.

I'm always for a new talent, and like @navysaintsfan said, sometimes a change in scenery (I'll add "and culture") is all that's needed. And sometimes a leopard doesn't change it's spots. 

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I'm really not worried about his attitude and the Saints signing him as I would be a fan of other teams.

We have a track record of getting rid of players that are cancers.

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15 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

I'd rather not take a chance on him.  We're not that desperate at the position.

you mean unless Lattimore or Crawley get hurt. Which they have been. Our CB depth is doo doo. Please don't delude yourself.

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5 minutes ago, navysaintsfan said:

you mean unless Lattimore or Crawley get hurt. Which they have been. Our CB depth is doo doo. Please don't delude yourself.

Not to mention Apple was drafted because his talent is higher than Conley but lower than Lattimore.  If he plays at his talent level Crawley woupd be our #3 CB and Apple was a much more dynamic CB in college.  Granted it still needs to translate but I think a change of scenery would probably let him get closer to his potential.

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4 minutes ago, Raves said:

Not to mention Apple was drafted because his talent is higher than Conley but lower than Lattimore.  If he plays at his talent level Crawley woupd be our #3 CB and Apple was a much more dynamic CB in college.  Granted it still needs to translate but I think a change of scenery would probably let him get closer to his potential.

I don't agree with this logic. Draft position doesn't equal talent. Just look at Kamara this year would you take Kamara over the RB's picked ahead of him? Would you take Richard Sherman over all of the CB's drafted before him?

Crawley is showing he can be a good to great CB in this league Apple hasn't shown that yet through 2 years.

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1 hour ago, navysaintsfan said:

you mean unless Lattimore or Crawley get hurt. Which they have been. Our CB depth is doo doo. Please don't delude yourself.

And we can get a CB elsewhere, we're not desperate enough to need Eli Apple.  

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3 hours ago, Jlowe22 said:

And we can get a CB elsewhere, we're not desperate enough to need Eli Apple.  

You seem to think the conversation is to trade for him or to give him a big contract.  It's simply if he's released, give him a prove-it contract that is easy to cut with no potential impact on the Saints.  They can figure out if he will work out quickly into training camp and cut him quickly if it's not.  This isn't like the discussion to bring in Butler.

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49 minutes ago, Raves said:

You seem to think the conversation is to trade for him or to give him a big contract.  It's simply if he's released, give him a prove-it contract that is easy to cut with no potential impact on the Saints.  They can figure out if he will work out quickly into training camp and cut him quickly if it's not.  This isn't like the discussion to bring in Butler.

No, I seem to think that it's not a good idea to bring in a head case.

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52 minutes ago, Jlowe22 said:

No, I seem to think that it's not a good idea to bring in a head case.

How did you feel about bringing in Fairley?  He's been a headcase for much of his career and seemed to be fine in New Orleans.

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2 minutes ago, Raves said:

How did you feel about bringing in Fairley?  He's been a headcase for much of his career and seemed to be fine in New Orleans.

I never want to bring in a head case, but when you're the worst defense in NFL history, you have to take risks.   We're not the worst defense in NFL history anymore, and have two really good corners, another solid one, perhaps two solid ones depending on Breaux, and there's no need to bring in a grown man we're gonna have to babysit.

 

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I have a question.

We've seen the Saints defense dramatically improve with the addition of Lattimore. Ohio State had a great defense when he was on the team, and that included Eli Apple, who has basically been a bust at #10.

So, is it just me, or is the play of Apple overrated based on what other players have been able to do in the presence of Lattimore? Serious question.

We've even seen our defense struggle this season when Lattimore was out vs. when he's in. It just makes me wonder if the play of Lattimore actually helped Apple with a higher than deserved draft position, and a higher than deserved recognition in the rumor mill.

p.s. Everyone is happy when they're winning (Ohio State vs. New York).

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8 minutes ago, Mid Iowa said:

I have a question.

We've seen the Saints defense dramatically improve with the addition of Lattimore. Ohio State had a great defense when he was on the team, and that included Eli Apple, who has basically been a bust at #10.

So, is it just me, or is the play of Apple overrated based on what other players have been able to do in the presence of Lattimore? Serious question.

We've even seen our defense struggle this season when Lattimore was out vs. when he's in. It just makes me wonder if the play of Lattimore actually helped Apple with a higher than deserved draft position, and a higher than deserved recognition in the rumor mill.

p.s. Everyone is happy when they're winning (Ohio State vs. New York).

Which is why me and nsf think a change in scenery might work, and if it's not we make sure his contract is easily jettisoned.  Also Apple was a starter with Roby before Lattimore got into the starting role and he was a stud with him as well.  I don't think we should hitch our wagon to Apple, but if we can get him on a non-guaranteed contract I say we at least see if he can grow with our team.

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2 hours ago, Mid Iowa said:

I have a question.

We've seen the Saints defense dramatically improve with the addition of Lattimore. Ohio State had a great defense when he was on the team, and that included Eli Apple, who has basically been a bust at #10.

So, is it just me, or is the play of Apple overrated based on what other players have been able to do in the presence of Lattimore? Serious question.

We've even seen our defense struggle this season when Lattimore was out vs. when he's in. It just makes me wonder if the play of Lattimore actually helped Apple with a higher than deserved draft position, and a higher than deserved recognition in the rumor mill.

p.s. Everyone is happy when they're winning (Ohio State vs. New York).

This type of thing seems to happen a lot with powerhouse college teams. For example, Alabama has had several guys (obviously have also had a lot of good ones as well) bust in the NFL that were drafted high. Guys like Dee Milliner, Dre Kirkpatrick, and Mark Barron come to mind. These are guys that were starters for Alabama and had the size and athleticism to get scouts excited for their "potential" at the next level. However they really just weren't that great of football players. It's more of a case of being surrounded by tons of talent at the college level which masks deficiencies in their game from really being exposed at the college level.

This is what I am thinking is more the case in regards to Apple right now. Ohio State has been loaded on defense the past several years. Just look at this list of guys drafted early on their defense the past couple years:

Marson Lattimore

Malik Hooker

Gereon Conley 

Raekwon Mcmillan

Vonn Bell

Darron Lee

Joey Bosa

I think Apple is simply going to be one of those cases of a guy with good size/athleticism for the position, but lacks as an actual football player. Or as Mike Mayock would say, "looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane". He was surrounded by so much talent at Ohio State and has enough athleticism to mask some mistakes at the college level. However it appears that he is being exposed at the NFL level the past 2 seasons, and has also been a cancer to his team with his attitude.

This is why I gladly roll with a guy like Crawley who has the same size/athleticism for the position as Apple, but has shown he is more talented at the NFL level, as he has actually played nearly a full year at a high level this year. Crawley is also young and was pretty raw coming into the league, so I expect that he will continue to improve in the coming years.

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On 12/30/2017 at 10:27 AM, Raves said:

Probably not because we wouldn't have 2 secondary players and another offensive player that he would've played with and had rapport with.  He's an extremely talented player and was drafted as such, he has some issues as seen by this situation but if these players vouch that he's not normally like this and think he could turn it around then we take a low risk/high reward chance on him, if they don't think it you don't do it.  I mean really is there another school we have more recent players from to even use as a comparison?

I understand what your saying but you (as a front office) simply cannot take the word of your young guys who are likley to vouch for their boy. You have to also take into account your own scouting reports and information you get from NY as well. My biggest concern would be with Lattimore looking like a future HOF if he remains healthy and Bell well on his way to supplanting Vaccaro, bringing in Apple is a risk I simply not willing to take because I view the risk far outweighs the reward. Ken Crawley has had a very good season this year so I dont feel that desperate. 

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On 12/31/2017 at 2:44 PM, whodatworm23 said:

I understand what your saying but you (as a front office) simply cannot take the word of your young guys who are likley to vouch for their boy. You have to also take into account your own scouting reports and information you get from NY as well. My biggest concern would be with Lattimore looking like a future HOF if he remains healthy and Bell well on his way to supplanting Vaccaro, bringing in Apple is a risk I simply not willing to take because I view the risk far outweighs the reward. Ken Crawley has had a very good season this year so I dont feel that desperate. 

Considering Apple, Lattimore, and Bell played exceedingly well together whats this risk you speak of?  The biggest risk would be towards Crawley who could lose playing time if supplanted by Apple.  Also this is the NFL and a business, people will only vouch for so much as it affects their potential future earnings as well and know that if the guy is gonna be an issue its not worth to bring him in.  Heck it's also not like they are going to ask them about Apple in front of him so they would have no reason to lie.

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