The Jon Gruden Thread, Man

[oakdb36]

14 minutes ago, NickButera said:

I still worry about not bringing in  enough youth to develop during free agency, but that's just my couch coaching.

The cheap youth to develop in FA has been in the NFL for 4 years. So chances are they'll never develop. If you want to develop players, you draft them.

[Silver&Black88]

On 3/29/2018 at 2:54 PM, oakdb36 said:

The cheap youth to develop in FA has been in the NFL for 4 years. So chances are they'll never develop. If you want to develop players, you draft them.

Only counterpoint is scheme fit...but that's not quite the same thing. Like young players who haven't developed because their team's scheme didn't suit them. Then once in a new system, they develop and play better.

edited for typo

[NickButera]

7 minutes ago, Silver&Black88 said:

Only counterpoint is scheme fit...but that's not quite the same thing. Like young players who haven't developed because their team's scheme didn't shut them. Then once in a new system, they develop and play better.

Yup. And to the previous point, all I meant was that more stores you raid from, the more treasures you can come out with. 

[NightTrainLane]

1 hour ago, oakdb36 said:

The cheap youth to develop in FA has been in the NFL for 4 years. So chances are they'll never develop. If you want to develop players, you draft them.

Yup and we have 12 picks plus what ever UDFA we grab. I think we'll have plenty of youth in the building.

We have 75 guys on the roster right now not counting the draft picks. Of those 75, 11 are 30 or over and 22 are 28 and over. Out of 75.

I think our ratio of old/young is just fine.

Not a not something that people should be focusing on as much as they are in the scheme of things.

 

[holyghost]

2 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

But your complaint doesn't mesh with how the NFL and salary cap work. If we just benched and released every guy after he made mistakes instead of trying to develop them and let them gain experience and get better we'd have a team full of UDFA(more than we already did last year) that have little to no pedigree or solid skill building blocks because there are UDFAs. Some guys are gonna take time, some guys are gonna get hurt and it will slow there development.

I understand what you are saying in respect to developmental guys and it makes sense in hind sight but many of the guys that are seemingly safe pick bust too. But that is water under the bridge at this point. We need to move on to this era and see how we build with this group of coaches, this scheme and the guys they bring in. If FA and Gruden's actual words are any indicator, it's gonna a competitive off-season, which is a good thing.

Yeah. But somehow it meshes with a number of successful organizations that consistently win.

Come on man. There isn't a person among us who could not see McDonald, Hamilton, Keith McGill, Vadal Alexander lacked both execution and promise from the getgo. And if I really want to scrounge through Raider history (which I am not spending the time doing so don't ask) I bet I could find tens or possibly a hundred names of guys who never did jack and hung around Oakland way too long on 0 merit or actual promise.

 

Main problem seems to me is that we have no idea what in the hell the coaches are making these decisions based on, or what they see in these guys that never translates to any game play. Is it favoritism, is it to cover draft mistakes, is it front office ineptitude in finding more players, is it general entrenchment and stubbornness?

Edited March 29, 2018 by holyghost

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 hours ago, holyghost said:

Sort of. I think it goes beyond coaching. I think it is a core issue of how this whole organization functions, which is why I illustrated it through the draft and picking upside players. That partially binds you to poor performance. 

AFA Alexander and the follow up posts, perhaps he did look better than Newhouse. But what the hell does that say? Nothing much. If a guy has two holding penalties in a short span and needs TE help every pass play for the remainder of a game, on some teams that is unacceptable and immediate benching. If not later release soon after. Sends the message, if you can't do the job we will find someone else who will be able. ABLE. Performance based. But then again you have to actually be able to find someone who can the job. Which we have not proven that we can do, or are willing to do. Not sure which. 

This is why I have no problem with old vets coming in to fight for jobs. Rookies and young guys have to beat them out (hopefully). If they don't, let those who can execute get the playing time.

In retrospect I do realize that he was the 3rd RT so there's some measure of realizing there's not much you can do at that point. It's not an amazing example of what I am talking about. But I did want to reference, generally, how numerous guys have hung around on the Raiders for way too long without showing merit. Or development for that matter. 

Do you think we're the only team that issues chip help for our ot's? We're in a division with von Miller's and Houston's and bosa's. We aren't the only team who uses extra te's and ol men to help our ot's. Ideally you want a ot that can lock up von etc one on one but good luck finding one in the NFL. I hear your frustration tho...what's your solution?

[NightTrainLane]

1 hour ago, holyghost said:

Yeah. But somehow it meshes with a number of successful organizations that consistently win.

Come on man. There isn't a person among us who could not see McDonald, Hamilton, Keith McGill, Vadal Alexander lacked both execution and promise from the getgo. And if I really want to scrounge through Raider history (which I am not spending the time doing so don't ask) I bet I could find tens or possibly a hundred names of guys who never did jack and hung around Oakland way too long on 0 merit or actual promise.

 

Main problem seems to me is that we have no idea what in the hell the coaches are making these decisions based on, or what they see in these guys that never translates to any game play. Is it favoritism, is it to cover draft mistakes, is it front office ineptitude in finding more players, is it general entrenchment and stubbornness?

You diddn't read the last paragraph of my post or choose to ignore it. Going round and round about the fringe of the roster and how they disappoint is useless in the present.

[holyghost]

11 hours ago, NightTrainLane said:

You diddn't read the last paragraph of my post or choose to ignore it. Going round and round about the fringe of the roster and how they disappoint is useless in the present.

I read it, have no issue with it. I genuinely also look forward to this staff. And I hope they are better able to recognize when a guy isn't performing and looks clearly like he never will. Then not keeping him around for years with no reasoning behind it. I also hope they finally get off the cycle of "potential" that leads to chronic underperformance.

Of course these criticisms are useless. All fan opinion is useless, we have no power within a team other than financial boycott. But since there's typically no solidarity to boycotts, those are also next to useless. At the very least my suggestion would be four fold, to start. 1. Start drafting players with some sort of history of performance over potential. Flush the Al Davis drafting plan finally. 2. Genuinely pursue competition for every single roster spot (not just preach it but then not actually do it, like past years), including the addition of veterans (similar to what we are now seeing happen) even if their chances of making the roster are small. No poor performance player should feel like they have a cushy job. And many have over the years. 3. Have a front office genuinely skilled at acquiring talent that can operate without interference but which is actually on the same philosophical page as the coaching staff. A unified and properly delegated organization, communicative but non interfering. It is called well defined roles and proper delegation of responsibility. 4. Bench / cut players for failure to perform adequately, within reason. Some examples have to be laid out, in season. For example, someone like Jalen Richard would have seen his PR role taken away quickly on alot of other teams last year with all the fumbling issues. We saw nothing happen.

These outlines are vague, being outlines they can never be more than vague. It is their execution, like anything in life, that takes real implementation, commitment, and work. That is a whole different ball of wax.

[G]

On 1/1/2018 at 8:54 AM, G said:

JDR

Thanks for changing the culture and giving Raiders high expectations. Those expectations  when not reached led to you being replaced. Wish this season went better but it's obvious that the team wasn't focused most of the season and the on field product suffered. Lots of distractions with moving and such, and Carr getting injured I think had him 'in his head' too much. You did a good job but as you know we have a Commitment to EXCELLENCE and good is not good enough. Oakland needs that trophy before we leave to Vegas and Vegas wants winners. 6-10 just won't do so a change was made ASAP. With great risks come great rewards.

So this was my first post in this thread. After a season of Gruden, I dislike Gruden more than I did Del Rio when he left. Gruden 4-12 where the team QUIT on him yet Del Rio fired for 6-10  with players losing their focus after having a playoff season before. 

Why do I not like Gruden?!?

#1 Length of contract...It saps all hope if he doesn't turn things around ASAP. So far he's failing miserably. Keeping Cable...?!?

#2 Khalil Mack...No contact, no contract and then traded at the absolute worst time. We had leverage and didn't use it.

#3 'Gruden not taking RESPONSIBILITY...Everybody knows who's 'in charge' and 'pass rushers are hard to find.' Especially when you trade them before the season.

#4 The Brown's money...Trent and AB were more than Mack got, yet I thought we were 'rebuilding' so a lack a true direction. Rebuild or win now...Or we didn't have enough because...

#5 EGO...So glad this AB mess might make him 'think' a bit more about how he goes about business. A little humble pie is good if learned from.

 

What I like about Gruden...His fire/passion and intensity. I think he can learn from all this, but I think he'll just rebuild with a rookie QB in the next year or two. He's got 9 years left

[NYRaider]

Gruden was an average coach before he went into TV. He has absolutely no business making personnel decisions for an NFL team as we've seen the last two years. 

[drfrey13]

I would take Gruden in a limited role but he should not make any personnel decisions.  He has failed so many times.  Relative to Del Rio I am not a fan of either of them.  Just for different reasons.  I hate that Del Rio kept KNJ around and I hate that Gruden got rid of Pagano and Mack.  We were a top ten defense after Pagano took over and Gruden probably did not give him or Mack a call after he was hired.  It is not as if Pagano did not fit Gruden's defense.  It was the defense was better than the offense and that is what bothered Gruden about Tampa.  Dungy's D won him a Superbowl and not his offense.  Gruden will put himself first before the team.  That is why he thinks AB is misunderstood.  They both have basketball mentalities.  Look good and lose rather than look bad and win.  Yes we lost but did you see what I did.  If they would work like I do it would have been different.  Me first and always have an excuse in your back pocket.

[Humble_Beast]

Gruden hasn’t really done anything to improve the team since he took over. His outdated smash mouth machismo mentality doesn’t mesh well with today’s scheme complexity. His personality is also a detriment to the younger, emotional, delicate/rebellious millennial type. Cooper and Mack are excelling in different organizations. Carr plays like a scared conservative little girl, walking on egg shells because he doesn’t want to infuriate King Chuckie. When laid back Del Rio was in charge, number 4 was thriving, not only because he had better wideouts, but he had more confidence. Carr is super delicate (so was Cooper) so he’ll probably never fit into Gruden’s plans.

[roi34]

1 minute ago, Humble_Beast said:

Gruden hasn’t really done anything to improve the team since he took over. His outdated smash mouth machismo mentality doesn’t mesh well with today’s scheme complexity. His personality is also a detriment to the younger, emotional, delicate/rebellious millennial type. Cooper and Mack are excelling in different organizations. Carr plays like a scared conservative little girl, walking on egg shells because he doesn’t want to infuriate King Chuckie. When laid back Del Rio was in charge, number 4 was thriving, not only because he had better wideouts, but he had more confidence. Carr is super delicate (so was Cooper) so he’ll probably never fit into Gruden’s plans.

What smash mouth? Jacobs 11/10 carries back to back games.

 

The one game we ran a lot we won.

 

Also Mack is just a beast and Cooper has been misused since Musgrave left.

Edited September 23, 2019 by roi34

[Humble_Beast]

I wanted to believe in Jon, but the game has left him in the dust. We are out coached every week, and teams make adjustments on the fly a lot better. We are stuck with Gruden for a decade. Sadly that contract might be the worst move this franchise made, and this franchise has made so many bad moves   hopefully when we move we some billionaire gives Mark an offer he can’t refuse and takes over ownership. Our team is worse with Gruden, just stating the obvious. We traded two cornerstones in their primes (cooper, Mack) for two late round 1st rounders.... let that sync in your mind 

Edited September 23, 2019 by Humble_Beast

[SBXISBXVSBXVIII]

37 minutes ago, Humble_Beast said:

I wanted to believe in Jon, but the game has left him in the dust. We are out coached every week, and teams make adjustments on the fly a lot better. We are stuck with Gruden for a decade. Sadly that contract might be the worst move this franchise made, and this franchise has made so many bad moves   hopefully when we move we some billionaire gives Mark an offer he can’t refuse and takes over ownership. Our team is worse with Gruden, just stating the obvious. We traded two cornerstones in their primes (cooper, Mack) for two late round 1st rounders.... let that sync in your mind 

Three first rounders....let that sync in YOUR mind (whatever the hell that means)