champ11 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 The more I sit on it the more okay I am with Vance keeping his job. Build the franchise back up and move on in the future. A LOT of pressure on Elway to nail this offseason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 I'm real pleased they moved as quick as they did filling gaps in the offensive staff. First glance would indicate they got some pretty good coaching talent. Keeping Musgrave, Strausser and Kubiak should maintain some stability, while the new additions bring some much needed fresh perspective. That should help a lot in bringing along last years draft class. Similar playbook and nomenclature. Probably simpler. Can anyone tell me what the restrictions are under the CBA for one on one coaching work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAngryAmerican Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 3 hours ago, champ11 said: The more I sit on it the more okay I am with Vance keeping his job. Build the franchise back up and move on in the future. A LOT of pressure on Elway to nail this offseason. You know I respect you Deuce but there's no justification whatsoever for Vance keeping his job. He was kept for the simple fact that cheapskate Joe Ellis, who cannot even find a stadium naming rights partner and screwed up not selling the naming rights to whomever was bidding when the Broncos brand was in much better shape than it is right now, didn't want to pay out the rest of his contract. Vance is a worse coach than Mac was. I have never seen a team, a veteran team with gobs of talent, as poorly prepared as we were this year. The awful game-plans and inability to make adjustments, the continued use of players and schemes and game plans that do not work is unlike anything I've ever seen. He had absolutely no answers. Ever. He mentioned how we kept having great practices but then get blown out more than the Browns did. He clearly doesn't even know what a good practice looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said: You know I respect you Deuce but there's no justification whatsoever for Vance keeping his job. He was kept for the simple fact that cheapskate Joe Ellis, who cannot even find a stadium naming rights partner and screwed up not selling the naming rights to whomever was bidding when the Broncos brand was in much better shape than it is right now, didn't want to pay out the rest of his contract. Vance is a worse coach than Mac was. I have never seen a team, a veteran team with gobs of talent, as poorly prepared as we were this year. The awful game-plans and inability to make adjustments, the continued use of players and schemes and game plans that do not work is unlike anything I've ever seen. He had absolutely no answers. Ever. He mentioned how we kept having great practices but then get blown out more than the Browns did. He clearly doesn't even know what a good practice looks like. I agree that he is a bad coach (coaches can improve, but we didn't see much to give us hope)and a bad hire. Last off-season was a horrible misplay by Elway. He thought they were an OL and Lynch development away from being a good playoff team when they should have recognized a (at least mini) rebuild was necessary. He didn't want to hire Shanahan or consider McVay bc he thought the team had a foundation and wanted to do things his way. I don't think you can fix that with firing Vance or even nailing this offseason. My point and idea is that - this is a bad team that has needs everywhere. Most notably at QB, which is very difficult to figure out to begin with. This team is not going to become a good team this offseason, BUT Elway could do a lot to rebuild the foundation of the team. Right now, and when the coach hiring process would go on, it is not a desirable coaching destination. No QB or OL, controlling GM, incredibly high expectations from the fanbase, and high coaching turnover is not the dream job for a candidate. And what great candidates are realistically available? Is adding a re-tread head coach or an unknown coordinator better than running it back with Vance? Vance is a bad head coach - but it is true that the players like him. It's also true that there was a majorly toxic culture in Dove Valley this past year that has much more to do with the personnel and Elway than Joseph. I think he does deserve some credit for not totally losing the team in an incredibly tough situation and season. How much do you gain to fire him when you are going to be a non-playoff team either way? Avoid the turnover, try to rebuild the team personnel wise, add a QB of the now or future....and get a new coach in the future when you feel like you are a desirable destination and you have a guy you want. I just don't think it's as easy as Vance is a bad coach - fire him. This is a rebuild. The most important thing now is acquiring talent and developing it. These are my thoughts as I'm looking at the situation and future and I'm not adamant about being right. I agree that everyone has a right to be upset with Joseph's performance and of course Elway. I'm just thinking coaching turnover might make sense to avoid. Do you think I have any points or am being too easy on the org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKRNA Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 19 minutes ago, champ11 said: I agree that he is a bad coach (coaches can improve, but we didn't see much to give us hope)and a bad hire. Last off-season was a horrible misplay by Elway. He thought they were an OL and Lynch development away from being a good playoff team when they should have recognized a (at least mini) rebuild was necessary. He didn't want to hire Shanahan or consider McVay bc he thought the team had a foundation and wanted to do things his way. I don't think you can fix that with firing Vance or even nailing this offseason. My point and idea is that - this is a bad team that has needs everywhere. Most notably at QB, which is very difficult to figure out to begin with. This team is not going to become a good team this offseason, BUT Elway could do a lot to rebuild the foundation of the team. Right now, and when the coach hiring process would go on, it is not a desirable coaching destination. No QB or OL, controlling GM, incredibly high expectations from the fanbase, and high coaching turnover is not the dream job for a candidate. And what great candidates are realistically available? Is adding a re-tread head coach or an unknown coordinator better than running it back with Vance? Vance is a bad head coach - but it is true that the players like him. It's also true that there was a majorly toxic culture in Dove Valley this past year that has much more to do with the personnel and Elway than Joseph. I think he does deserve some credit for not totally losing the team in an incredibly tough situation and season. How much do you gain to fire him when you are going to be a non-playoff team either way? Avoid the turnover, try to rebuild the team personnel wise, add a QB of the now or future....and get a new coach in the future when you feel like you are a desirable destination and you have a guy you want. I just don't think it's as easy as Vance is a bad coach - fire him. This is a rebuild. The most important thing now is acquiring talent and developing it. These are my thoughts as I'm looking at the situation and future and I'm not adamant about being right. I agree that everyone has a right to be upset with Joseph's performance and of course Elway. I'm just thinking coaching turnover might make sense to avoid. Do you think I have any points or am being too easy on the org Excellent post! Very insightful stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 31 minutes ago, champ11 said: I agree that he is a bad coach (coaches can improve, but we didn't see much to give us hope)and a bad hire. Last off-season was a horrible misplay by Elway. He thought they were an OL and Lynch development away from being a good playoff team when they should have recognized a (at least mini) rebuild was necessary. He didn't want to hire Shanahan or consider McVay bc he thought the team had a foundation and wanted to do things his way. I don't think you can fix that with firing Vance or even nailing this offseason. My point and idea is that - this is a bad team that has needs everywhere. Most notably at QB, which is very difficult to figure out to begin with. This team is not going to become a good team this offseason, BUT Elway could do a lot to rebuild the foundation of the team. Right now, and when the coach hiring process would go on, it is not a desirable coaching destination. No QB or OL, controlling GM, incredibly high expectations from the fanbase, and high coaching turnover is not the dream job for a candidate. And what great candidates are realistically available? Is adding a re-tread head coach or an unknown coordinator better than running it back with Vance? Vance is a bad head coach - but it is true that the players like him. It's also true that there was a majorly toxic culture in Dove Valley this past year that has much more to do with the personnel and Elway than Joseph. I think he does deserve some credit for not totally losing the team in an incredibly tough situation and season. How much do you gain to fire him when you are going to be a non-playoff team either way? Avoid the turnover, try to rebuild the team personnel wise, add a QB of the now or future....and get a new coach in the future when you feel like you are a desirable destination and you have a guy you want. I just don't think it's as easy as Vance is a bad coach - fire him. This is a rebuild. The most important thing now is acquiring talent and developing it. These are my thoughts as I'm looking at the situation and future and I'm not adamant about being right. I agree that everyone has a right to be upset with Joseph's performance and of course Elway. I'm just thinking coaching turnover might make sense to avoid. Do you think I have any points or am being too easy on the org At the same time don't you want a coach that this team can grow with? Because forget coaching I haven't seen Vance be able to develop talent can that change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 29 minutes ago, thebestever6 said: At the same time don't you want a coach that this team can grow with? Because forget coaching I haven't seen Vance be able to develop talent can that change? Not sure if we can totally judge him on his ability to develop talent, there frankly was minimal young talent on the team this past year and the talented guys played pretty well. That's pretty much just Parks, Simmons, Roby, Barrett lol. Bolles and Ray I'd say were slight disappointments for different reasons. Not much young talent outside of that. That's obviously a lot on the positional coaches too. But to your point - yes. It's definitely bad to have a dead man walking coach and if they fire him six games into the season after setting high expectations in the offseason it will be like WTF? The thing that I'm wondering is - the vets that are on the team like VJ. Von lobbied for VJ and he is (for better or worse) the team leader and cornerstone for now. Bringing a new coach in would require a completely new buy in from the whole team and there wouldn't be a foundation of vets helping out young guys. It would be going through the whole new coach and new everything (coaching style, practice style, etc etc) process all over again. This is such a huge off-season that may be something Elway may want to avoid. But of course you want a long term coach. They obviously thought Joseph would be that guy, but doesn't look like it. The question is, would they get that guy this offseason and go through the culture issues that come with getting a new coach? My guess would be no, a good/great coach is probably not available or choosing Denver this offseason. Should the Broncos have hired Shanahan? Hell yeah, it looks like it. Does firing Vance now fix that, though? Nope. And fans hating Joseph ain't gonna fix it either. As a die hard Nuggets fan I am very aware of the rebuilding process (lol). A LOT of it is culture. Having a great in game coach is not nearly as important as having a coach that is a great practice and personality coach when the team isn't going to be very good......Obviously you want both. But only having one of those traits as a HC is not the end of the world as a rebuilding team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiehardBronxFan Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, champ11 said: I agree that he is a bad coach (coaches can improve, but we didn't see much to give us hope)and a bad hire. Last off-season was a horrible misplay by Elway. He thought they were an OL and Lynch development away from being a good playoff team when they should have recognized a (at least mini) rebuild was necessary. He didn't want to hire Shanahan or consider McVay bc he thought the team had a foundation and wanted to do things his way. I don't think you can fix that with firing Vance or even nailing this offseason. My point and idea is that - this is a bad team that has needs everywhere. Most notably at QB, which is very difficult to figure out to begin with. This team is not going to become a good team this offseason, BUT Elway could do a lot to rebuild the foundation of the team. Right now, and when the coach hiring process would go on, it is not a desirable coaching destination. No QB or OL, controlling GM, incredibly high expectations from the fanbase, and high coaching turnover is not the dream job for a candidate. And what great candidates are realistically available? Is adding a re-tread head coach or an unknown coordinator better than running it back with Vance? Vance is a bad head coach - but it is true that the players like him. It's also true that there was a majorly toxic culture in Dove Valley this past year that has much more to do with the personnel and Elway than Joseph. I think he does deserve some credit for not totally losing the team in an incredibly tough situation and season. How much do you gain to fire him when you are going to be a non-playoff team either way? Avoid the turnover, try to rebuild the team personnel wise, add a QB of the now or future....and get a new coach in the future when you feel like you are a desirable destination and you have a guy you want. I just don't think it's as easy as Vance is a bad coach - fire him. This is a rebuild. The most important thing now is acquiring talent and developing it. These are my thoughts as I'm looking at the situation and future and I'm not adamant about being right. I agree that everyone has a right to be upset with Joseph's performance and of course Elway. I'm just thinking coaching turnover might make sense to avoid. Do you think I have any points or am being too easy on the org A lot of very good points in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiehardBronxFan Posted January 5, 2018 Share Posted January 5, 2018 2 hours ago, thebestever6 said: At the same time don't you want a coach that this team can grow with? Because forget coaching I haven't seen Vance be able to develop talent can that change? It's the position coaches that should be developing the players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 3 hours ago, DiehardBronxFan said: It's the position coaches that should be developing the players So Elway had no collaborations with Vance on bringing in assistant coaches? And elway just bargain binned it? Or id Vance inept on finding assistant coaches too? And to @champ11 what do you expect the veterans to say. Elway fix this mistake? I mean as big of a pompous you know what Mac got veteran support after his first year . I'm not surprised. I want systems and cultures being cultivated in here so we can contend for years to come. Can we get that,with Vance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 6, 2018 Share Posted January 6, 2018 Keeping VJ probably allowed us to get into the Senior Bowl. Given that there are so many other teams looking for HC’s I actually kind of get why he was retained. @champ11 is spot on that we aren’t even close to an A-list destination right now. I also don’t think he will take the next leap in Year 2 but I could actually see us stuck with a retread had we turned over after 1 year. We committed to keeping OC Musgrave which basically made the position a no go for any offensive minded HC’s. Having said all the above keeping Russell to head up the scouting team might negate that benefit gained. I worry more about the inertia there more than anything else. SMH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
champ11 Posted January 7, 2018 Share Posted January 7, 2018 On 1/5/2018 at 8:04 PM, thebestever6 said: So Elway had no collaborations with Vance on bringing in assistant coaches? And elway just bargain binned it? Or id Vance inept on finding assistant coaches too? And to @champ11 what do you expect the veterans to say. Elway fix this mistake? I mean as big of a pompous you know what Mac got veteran support after his first year . I'm not surprised. I want systems and cultures being cultivated in here so we can contend for years to come. Can we get that,with Vance? Elway can read the room. They don't need to say anything. If the players were out on Vance I'd expect him to be gone. Not sure Vance is building a good/great culture, but like I said it's probably better than going through all the turnover again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I am not sure about the toxic culture in Dove Valley...think those are the wrong word to be used. It isn't like players are turning on each other or the coaching staff or management. Are there some slights being thrown around..sure that is the product of an emotional season where things didn't go the Broncos' way when the expectation is to be in the playoffs...I almost consider the slights a healthy response. Overall, I like the culture for the Broncos...eight conference championships since 1977 proves that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncos67 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 1 hour ago, jsthomp2007 said: I am not sure about the toxic culture in Dove Valley...think those are the wrong word to be used. It isn't like players are turning on each other or the coaching staff or management. Are there some slights being thrown around..sure that is the product of an emotional season where things didn't go the Broncos' way when the expectation is to be in the playoffs...I almost consider the slights a healthy response. Overall, I like the culture for the Broncos...eight conference championships since 1977 proves that. I agree with this. I don't think the players are against each other or anything like that. I do personally believe they tuned Joseph out after awhile, especially during that brutal losing streak. Then, when the media attention turned to negatives about the players, they actually responded in kind. That said, I think Joseph is only around so we can be at the Sr. Bowl, and because there don't appear to be a bevy of good options. I'm actually thrilled Matt LaFleur doesn't appear to be getting a lot of hype- it means when the Rams offense takes off even more next year he'll be a great candidate for us once goofy Vance loses a few games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsthomp2007 Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, broncos67 said: I agree with this. I don't think the players are against each other or anything like that. I do personally believe they tuned Joseph out after awhile, especially during that brutal losing streak. Then, when the media attention turned to negatives about the players, they actually responded in kind. That said, I think Joseph is only around so we can be at the Sr. Bowl, and because there don't appear to be a bevy of good options. I'm actually thrilled Matt LaFleur doesn't appear to be getting a lot of hype- it means when the Rams offense takes off even more next year he'll be a great candidate for us once goofy Vance loses a few games It does seem like a good strategy by Elway. I guess it was a similar strategy imposed by the Tebow experience...when that experiment went well, in terms of the Broncos going to the playoffs and winning a game...it was easy for Elway to tell Manning..."your are the missing piece..." Hopefully the Broncos get some pieces locked down, especially at QB, and hopefully they have a decent turn around so Elway can go grab the best coach in the market to say, "you are the missing piece..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.