Carmen Cygni Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 2 hours ago, RavensfanRD said: In what world? Have you not watched him sacrifice my Ravens since 2013? (Can't count 2012 because he was just there. The real coaches were on the field. Reed and Lewis) Ravens went super deep on defense the last couple years and we STILL can't make a got damn 4 quarter stand. Can't get pressure. He allows Brandon Carr to be murdered by Antonio Brown. Even if you couldn't stop him, at least attempt to slow him down. What does he do? Allow Carr to continue to be son'd on national TV. Great Defensive fraud all the way around. "I never liked him. For all I know he had my Ravens setup and ruined their playoff and SuperBowl dreams on purpose since 2012." - Tony Montana on Dean Pees I know it's hard to step outside the fandom box and look back in without bias, but Dan Pees is an excellent DC and had one bad year in '15. Scheme, coverages, playcalls, etc. Pees was on point for a heavy majority of his tenure in Baltimore. Quite telling how one of your gripes was trying to stop the best WR in the game as well. Defensive success against AB is very very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Carmen Cygni said: I know it's hard to step outside the fandom box and look back in without bias, but Dan Pees is an excellent DC and had one bad year in '15. Scheme, coverages, playcalls, etc. Pees was on point for a heavy majority of his tenure in Baltimore. This is not just normal wrong. It's advanced wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 17 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: This is not just normal wrong. It's advanced wrong. You'll appreciate the way he disguised coverage's once he's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 37 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said: You'll appreciate the way he disguised coverage's once he's gone. No we won't, because as much as Pees relied on the faux "coverage disguise" nonsense to his "complex" defense, it rarely fooled anyone. Watch how Ben Roethlisberger tore his coverages apart a couple weeks ago. Watch how Andy freaking Dalton tore his coverages up on the final drive of yesterday's game. He's not fooling anyone except horrible QB's. I honestly can't tell though if media people are just being nice to a guy who's retiring by calling him "one of the best" or if they actually believe he's one of the best. If it's the latter, I just don't understand where that's coming from. I'm very thankful he's gone. He single handedly ruined the development of guys like Terrence Brooks, Arthur Brown, Kamalei Correa, and Matt Elam. Along with failing to play guys like Kendrick Lewis, Darian Stewart, and now Tony Jefferson in positions to succeed. As for promoting Martindale, it would be a horrible decision. I looked up how he did in Denver in 2010 and his defense didn't rank higher than 15th in any defensive category and was 32nd in like 5 categories. I want no part in that being what we move on to after Dean Pees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 27 minutes ago, Darth Pees said: No we won't, because as much as Pees relied on the faux "coverage disguise" nonsense to his "complex" defense, it rarely fooled anyone. Watch how Ben Roethlisberger tore his coverages apart a couple weeks ago. Watch how Andy freaking Dalton tore his coverages up on the final drive of yesterday's game. He's not fooling anyone except horrible QB's. I honestly can't tell though if media people are just being nice to a guy who's retiring by calling him "one of the best" or if they actually believe he's one of the best. If it's the latter, I just don't understand where that's coming from. I'm very thankful he's gone. He single handedly ruined the development of guys like Terrence Brooks, Arthur Brown, Kamalei Correa, and Matt Elam. Along with failing to play guys like Kendrick Lewis, Darian Stewart, and now Tony Jefferson in positions to succeed. As for promoting Martindale, it would be a horrible decision. I looked up how he did in Denver in 2010 and his defense didn't rank higher than 15th in any defensive category and was 32nd in like 5 categories. I want no part in that being what we move on to after Dean Pees. Interesting take considering the Ravens have had a top 10 passing defense the past 3 years, and were always at least in the top half of the league with the exception of '14 under Pees. I can't comment too much on the player development subject as my focus was scheme when I watched the Ravens. Though I will say that quite a few of those names didn't impress me on draft day according to their round selection to begin with. Also Jefferson was used much the same way as he was in Arizona in multiple coverage looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 32 minutes ago, Carmen Cygni said: Interesting take considering the Ravens have had a top 10 passing defense the past 3 years, and were always at least in the top half of the league with the exception of '14 under Pees. I can't comment too much on the player development subject as my focus was scheme when I watched the Ravens. Though I will say that quite a few of those names didn't impress me on draft day according to their round selection to begin with. Also Jefferson was used much the same way as he was in Arizona in multiple coverage looks. When you have the talent level that our team has on defense and the best you can do is "top 10 passing defense", it really does say a lot. Pees is as good as the talent he's provided with, it's really that simple. He can't elevate the play of a team, he has to rely on the players' talent to succeed. Also, the bolded could not be more wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DutchFalcon Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 How do you consistently field a top 10 defense with a bad coordinator over multiple years with different personnel? One thing that always impressed me about the Ravens defense is that they always seemed to have good depth, if a starter goes down a relative nobody comes in and does a good job. Wouldn't at least a part of that be down to the defensive coordinator and the way he develops talent? Or is that all assistant coaches and the fact that the scouting is just that good? As an outsider I have a feeling Pees might have been under appreciated. As a Falcon fan it feels like a small miracle every time to D gets a stop on a 4th quarter drive, instead of expecting it to happen. Wouldn't surprise me if quite a few fans of other teams will feel the same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensfanRD Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 43 minutes ago, DutchFalcon said: How do you consistently field a top 10 defense with a bad coordinator over multiple years with different personnel? One thing that always impressed me about the Ravens defense is that they always seemed to have good depth, if a starter goes down a relative nobody comes in and does a good job. Wouldn't at least a part of that be down to the defensive coordinator and the way he develops talent? Or is that all assistant coaches and the fact that the scouting is just that good? As an outsider I have a feeling Pees might have been under appreciated. As a Falcon fan it feels like a small miracle every time to D gets a stop on a 4th quarter drive, instead of expecting it to happen. Wouldn't surprise me if quite a few fans of other teams will feel the same way. This because you are on the outside looking in. We're always on pins and needles anytime we have the lead with under 3 minutes left and a competent QB opposing us. He always goes in that young *** zone/prevent defense while they march up the got damn field. As I said before, prime examples of his "Genius mind" is his defense blowing two 14 point leads on the road against Venom Brady in the divisional round 2014. Big Ben marching up and down the field with 7 minutes left in the Christmas Day Massacre. Then we have the worse loss I've ever seen in the regular season this past Sunday. We spent an entire draft on getting people who can get to the QB. I'm not buying that NONE of them can get there. He scheme is hot garbage and we won a superbowl in spite of him. The Ravens were the 17th ranked D with him in the Superbowl year with ALL the high-end players. He's a nice person and all, but his scheme sucked and it cost us playoff appearances on many occasions and another Superbowl appearance at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 3 hours ago, DutchFalcon said: How do you consistently field a top 10 defense with a bad coordinator over multiple years with different personnel? One thing that always impressed me about the Ravens defense is that they always seemed to have good depth, if a starter goes down a relative nobody comes in and does a good job. Wouldn't at least a part of that be down to the defensive coordinator and the way he develops talent? Or is that all assistant coaches and the fact that the scouting is just that good? As an outsider I have a feeling Pees might have been under appreciated. As a Falcon fan it feels like a small miracle every time to D gets a stop on a 4th quarter drive, instead of expecting it to happen. Wouldn't surprise me if quite a few fans of other teams will feel the same way. To your first question: Strength of schedule and the talent we've acquired on defense through the draft and FA. If we ever field top 10 defenses, it's in spite of Pees, not because of him. To your second question: We have good depth because we invest like all of our resources to defensive drafting. I'll make a counter point though - for every good front 7 player that comes from nowhere, we have a player in the secondary who sucks. Darian Stewart, Matt Elam, Kendrick Lewis, Tony Jefferson, etc. etc. are all players who were starters for Dean Pees' secondary and absolutely sucked. Stewart and Jefferson were/are good for others teams, too. The coordinator doesn't develop talent, but he is responsible for how the talent he's provided is utilized, and Dean Pees routinely fails to utilize his talent properly. For example, this year we came into the year with 5 OLB's who all bring something different to the table. Did Pees utilize them all? Nope. Instead, he stuck with Suggs/ZaDarius Smith/Matt Judon, and relegated Tim Williams and Tyus Bowser to being inactive or Special Teams players. He also dropped Judon into coverage on most of his defensive snaps, too. The result is that our pass rush mainly relied on an aging Terrell Suggs to carry us, and of course, the net result is that we were pretty much mediocre at sacks and 23rd in pressure rate. Those are just a couple of examples of how Pees utilizes the talent he's given incorrectly because he can't adapt his schemes. To your last question - If you feel like it's a miracle every time your D gets a stop in the 4th quarter, you should really not watch the Ravens, because our defense collapsing in the 4th quarter has been a staple of Dean Pees' defense ever since he came here, and there are 3 examples alone of this happening since the end of last year (Christmas last year, @Pittsburgh this year, and of course this past Sunday). It's one of the many reasons why people wanted him fired, because when the defense needed a stop, we rarely got it, and when your season ends 2 years in a row on late-game drives right down the field to win the game, it becomes inexcusable. And hell, had Jimmy Smith not made a fantastic play in the Superbowl to stop Michael Crabtree, we'd be talking about that game as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 3 hours ago, DutchFalcon said: How do you consistently field a top 10 defense with a bad coordinator over multiple years with different personnel? We invest a disproportionate amount of resources on that side of the ball. We had a lot more talent on that side of the ball than the offense BEFORE this last offseason and we still signed Tony Jefferson and Carr to bolster the secondary, gave Brandon Williams a huge contract that we didn't give to Kelechi Osemele, and spent our first round pick on a defender, and spent our second round pick on a defender, and spent our third round pick on a defender and spent our other third round pick on a defender. It's the talent that is making this a top 10 unit. 3 hours ago, DutchFalcon said: One thing that always impressed me about the Ravens defense is that they always seemed to have good depth, if a starter goes down a relative nobody comes in and does a good job. Again, this is not something that anyone who watches this team consistently would say. Look what happens every time Jimmy Smith goes down. Jimmy bailed Pees out of the greatest choke in super bowl history* during a championship run where Pees took a great Pagano coached defense to a mediocre bend but don't break defense to one that allowed 419, 398, 428 and 468 yards in their playoff games. And in 2014 Jimmy goes down and we immediately allow 6 passing TDs in Pittsburgh and eventually that roster, which was better on paper than the Super Bowl winning team, goes out when they give up a 14 points lead in New Engalnd TWICE. That same team had Kubiak have to deal with suddenly losing both his tackles, and a bunch of his weapons right before the playoffs but he's a good coach so he was able to lead an effective offense with Flacco, old man Steve Smith, Justin Forsett carrying the running game, and a patchwork offensive line to put up 30 and 35 in Pittsburgh and NE. Jimmy Smith went out again this year and immediately the defense broke AGAIN starting with Stafford shredding it the very next half after doing nothing before. And we even brought in much stronger corner depth to prepare for that eventuality. Pees is completely incapable of covering weaknesses. He needs a really good player at every position. The only big weakness we had on the defensive roster for the whole season was the ILB spot next to Mosley and we were CONSTANTLY exploited there in the second level in both the run and pass game. *at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 @wackywabbit While we're talking about depth, don't forget to mention how great our defense was when we lost Brandon Williams for a couple of games, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wackywabbit Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 10 minutes ago, Darth Pees said: @wackywabbit While we're talking about depth, don't forget to mention how great our defense was when we lost Brandon Williams for a couple of games, too. Yep. One great run defender goes down, our run defense goes to awful. One great cornerback goes down, our pass defense goes to awful. Got to love that consistency. To be factual: 166, 173, 108, and 231 rushing yards allowed in the four games Brandon Williams missed. That is flat out disgusting for anyone, let alone for the Ravens who always focus on stopping the run first and foremost. Great job covering that up Pees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 8 minutes ago, wackywabbit said: Yep. One great run defender goes down, our run defense goes to awful. One great cornerback goes down, our pass defense goes to awful. Got to love that consistency. Yep, but our defense is definitely based around the scheme and not the players! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 Maybe it's just because the new star wars came out, but I swear every time I see Pees' full name, I read it as "Darth Pees" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 2, 2018 Share Posted January 2, 2018 2 minutes ago, Forge said: Maybe it's just because the new star wars came out, but I swear every time I see Pees' full name, I read it as "Darth Pees" As you should, tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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