berlin calling Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 i agree that Jensen will continue the Ravens flood of OL compensatory draft picks. i got to trust them since they seem to know how to develop OL if nothing else. if they trust Skura to get the job done so be it. still need to account for Yanda retiring in the next 1 or 2 seasons so a high draft pick at IOL wouldn't hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 @berlin calling One thing that I don’t believe in draft wise is selecting high round interior offensive lineman. Nothing against them, but you can usually select one in the mid rounds (3rd-5th) and the return is nearly just as high if not higher than the higher round players. What I like to do is take a look at the top players at their position and see where they were drafted. It’s usually a trend with interior players that they were drafted in the middle rounds and were developed or maybe they were a solid OT that converted over to IOL and really dominated when they didn’t have to play in as much space. Though I guess this all depends on your definition of high round. I suppose “high” could be referring to a 3rd round player. Though for a dominating center (which I’m not sure if this draft has) I’d be willing to spend a 2nd round pick on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drd23 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 40 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said: What I like to do is take a look at the top players at their position and see where they were drafted. It’s usually a trend with interior players that they were drafted in the middle rounds and were developed or maybe they were a solid OT that converted over to IOL and really dominated when they didn’t have to play in as much space. Have you actually done this recently? Because I did a couple of months ago to prove a point to someone who claimed you should only use late rounds draft picks on OL or build them through UDFAs, and you'd be surprised at how many of the top OL were drafted in the 1st or 2nd round. Sure there are some who were late round picks (or even UDFAs), but they'd be in the minority Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danand Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 No matter the position, you increase your chance of getting a good player the higher in the draft you pick them. There is no rationale to the opposite. The thing is however, that there are more guards in a draft with the potential to become good interior guys, than there are centerfielders. So thats why especially tackles, pass rushers, QB are taken first in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RavensfanRD Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 7 hours ago, Danand said: Rick Dennison just became available. A day or two too late. Wasn't going to happen anyway. So! What's up with the Calvin Ridley? Looks beast from the Youtube highlights I've watched. Courtland seems cool, but not completely sold, dunno why. And who are the TE's I need to look at coming out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 @drd23 1. Jason Kelce, OC- 6th round 2. David DeCastro, OG- 1st round: Considsred by many to be one of the best guard prospects in college history. There are exceptions to every rule. He’s one of them. 3. Zac Martin, OG- 1st round: However Martin could play every position on the line. He excelled as a RT and LT during the draft process. He was drafted in the first round because of his versatility, he wasn’t a guard only option. 4. Alex Mack, OC- 1st round: One of the best offensive lineman I had ever scouted. I probably should also clarify. By IOL I typically don’t consider center. My history on this site I have always contended that center and left tackle hold the highest position value along the offensive line because of the rarity of truly great centers. Outside of an elite center though, I’d select the other players in the mid rounds. Average centers are a commodity. 5. Brandon Brooks- 3rd round. Sweet spot for value with OG. 6. Travis Frederick, OC- 1st round. Elite center. Some on this site said he was the best OL they had ever scouted. I really liked him, but didn’t agree with that sentiment. Still liked a few others a bit more. 7. Josh Sitton, OG- 4th Round. Sweet spot. 8. Brandon Scherff, OG- 1st round. Top ranked OT in that draft by many draftnicks. Won the Outland trophy as the top LT in the nation. He was moved to OG by the Redskins, essentially wasting some of his ability. He could probably be a top 10 OT in the league, so this pick simply proves the incompetence of the Redskins 9. Andrew Norwell, OG- undrafted. 10. Joel Bitonio, OG- 2nd round. Was a college tackle, but was converted to guard during the draft process. He’s a great player, but imagine if the Browns has spent such a high pick on a skill position instead, perhaps they don’t go 0-16. 11. Rodger Saffold, OG- 2nd round. Started his career as one of the top rated LT before injuries slowed him down and forced him to convert inside. 12. David Andrews, OC- undrafted 13. Shaq Mason, OG- 4th round. Sweet spot. 14. Kevin Zeitler, OG- 1st round. Some said Frederick was the best they had scouted. I thought Kevin Zeitler competed with Mack as one of the best guards I had ever scouted. He was unbelievable. I thought he was a better player than David DeCastro coming out that year. I still wouldn't have picked him in round one unless it was later in the round and our squad had few holes. 15. Rodney Hudson, OC- 2nd round. So thats 6/15 that we’re drafted in the 3rd, later, or undrafted all together. Thats 6/15 that we’re drafted in the 1st round. That’s 3/15 that were drafted in the 2nd round. Marshal Yanda would also be on this list if not for injury this season and he would add to the late round guys. This still goes to prove my point. The late round players are filling in just as many slots as the first round players. What’s more center is the only interior OL position where I would make an exception for an elite player. Thus had I made that known in my initial post, that would also go to further my point as Frederick and Rodney Hudson were considered top/elite center prospects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 I just think that taking an offensive guard, is usually going to hurt you. We took Ben Grubbs back in the day in the 1st round, he was a pro bowl level player but still left much to be desired. The opportunity cost on his selection might have resulted in a top tight end or wide receiver and then later in the draft we could’ve targeted an OG or attempt to convert an OT to guard. Thus even if the first round pick is better, the later round guy presents better value via opportunity cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coordinator0 Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 I'm happy as long as the players turns out to be worth the spot he was taken at regardless of position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mancunian Raven Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 I think Nico Siragusa would have proved to be a really good pick this year, had he not been injured. Especially when Yanda went down. But... not to be. Hopefully he can recover from what was a very serious injury, and prove himself. He ticked all the boxes as a mean, mauling Guard. Meanwhile, Joe D'Alessandris seems to know how to get the best out of his O-linemen, even getting decent production out of Skura and Hurst, so I'm content to see the Ravens go after a 3rd or 4th round guy again. The Calvin Ridley hype seems to be building, and I doubt it will cool off at all, unless he posts poor numbers at the Combine. I think he'll be out of reach at #16. I like Sutton a lot, and think he's exactly what the Ravens need. But there will be other guys there, who I don't know yet (and probably still won't know on draft day). I just really hope that we can finally get a break with the way the board falls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danand Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said: @drd23 1. Jason Kelce, OC- 6th round 2. David DeCastro, OG- 1st round: Considsred by many to be one of the best guard prospects in college history. There are exceptions to every rule. He’s one of them. 3. Zac Martin, OG- 1st round: However Martin could play every position on the line. He excelled as a RT and LT during the draft process. He was drafted in the first round because of his versatility, he wasn’t a guard only option. 4. Alex Mack, OC- 1st round: One of the best offensive lineman I had ever scouted. I probably should also clarify. By IOL I typically don’t consider center. My history on this site I have always contended that center and left tackle hold the highest position value along the offensive line because of the rarity of truly great centers. Outside of an elite center though, I’d select the other players in the mid rounds. Average centers are a commodity. 5. Brandon Brooks- 3rd round. Sweet spot for value with OG. 6. Travis Frederick, OC- 1st round. Elite center. Some on this site said he was the best OL they had ever scouted. I really liked him, but didn’t agree with that sentiment. Still liked a few others a bit more. 7. Josh Sitton, OG- 4th Round. Sweet spot. 8. Brandon Scherff, OG- 1st round. Top ranked OT in that draft by many draftnicks. Won the Outland trophy as the top LT in the nation. He was moved to OG by the Redskins, essentially wasting some of his ability. He could probably be a top 10 OT in the league, so this pick simply proves the incompetence of the Redskins 9. Andrew Norwell, OG- undrafted. 10. Joel Bitonio, OG- 2nd round. Was a college tackle, but was converted to guard during the draft process. He’s a great player, but imagine if the Browns has spent such a high pick on a skill position instead, perhaps they don’t go 0-16. 11. Rodger Saffold, OG- 2nd round. Started his career as one of the top rated LT before injuries slowed him down and forced him to convert inside. 12. David Andrews, OC- undrafted 13. Shaq Mason, OG- 4th round. Sweet spot. 14. Kevin Zeitler, OG- 1st round. Some said Frederick was the best they had scouted. I thought Kevin Zeitler competed with Mack as one of the best guards I had ever scouted. He was unbelievable. I thought he was a better player than David DeCastro coming out that year. I still wouldn't have picked him in round one unless it was later in the round and our squad had few holes. 15. Rodney Hudson, OC- 2nd round. So thats 6/15 that we’re drafted in the 3rd, later, or undrafted all together. Thats 6/15 that we’re drafted in the 1st round. That’s 3/15 that were drafted in the 2nd round. Marshal Yanda would also be on this list if not for injury this season and he would add to the late round guys. This still goes to prove my point. The late round players are filling in just as many slots as the first round players. What’s more center is the only interior OL position where I would make an exception for an elite player. Thus had I made that known in my initial post, that would also go to further my point as Frederick and Rodney Hudson were considered top/elite center prospects. Based on what you just wrote. Out of 15 examples, there is a much higher chance to find the quality guard/OC in the 1. round compared to the 2. round. 6 interior olines taken in 1 round still beat it 6 interior olines taken from round 3-7. I know I know, we could add a long list of whos made it and who didn't. But my bet is, that if you take the interior olines selected in each round the last 5 drafts, the 1. round will have a higher succesrate compared to each of the other rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berlin calling Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 don't forget that Yanda is the only elite OL we have currently, Stanley might get there but still has ways to go. so in my mind, if there is a can't miss project in the 1st round you take him. gotta have at least one top player belong the line to anchor that whole unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Danand said: Based on what you just wrote. Out of 15 examples, there is a much higher chance to find the quality guard/OC in the 1. round compared to the 2. round. 6 interior olines taken in 1 round still beat it 6 interior olines taken from round 3-7. I know I know, we could add a long list of whos made it and who didn't. But my bet is, that if you take the interior olines selected in each round the last 5 drafts, the 1. round will have a higher succesrate compared to each of the other rounds. Like I said, elite center I view similar in positional value to an elite LT. I can go back 10 years on this site and find posts where that’s my stance. What’s more look at the numbers of those 9/15 in the 1st or 2nd round, only 3 were true collegiate OG prospects during the draft process. The rest were viewed as OTs that either after injuries forced them to convert to OG in the pros (like an old CB converts to safety) or they were tried out at OT. Of course the success rate is higher with taking an interior lineman in the 1st round. That’s true with any position. But opportunity cost would mean that if we could get say: 1. Todd Heap, Ray Rice, and Marshal Yanda vs 2. Ben Grubbs, Torrey Smith, and Dennis Pitta vs 3. Jamal Lewis, Kelechi Osemele, and Dennis Pitta Which would you choose. Some might say I twisted the prospects to fit my point. But my point is about optimal value. Taking an OL in the first means you increase your chances of a great OL prospect, but significantly decrease your chances of selecting talent outside of round one. Using my theory of optimal value for a RB being in round 2. And OL round 3 and later. You find that the best combination pairs are first and third. But in today’s NFL the 1st pair quite easily wins out over even the third pairing. I’m not saying I dislike OL picks. Simply the later you pick them, the more increased value you can attain at other positions, where the difference between good and great and elite can truly be distingued. The difference between Yanda and Osemele and Grubbs isn’t paramount. Same with the difference between Jamal Lewis and Ray Rice. In fact one could argue that the later round player is better in each case. But the difference between missing out on a premier player in that round vs not missing out is where the biggest difference can be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danand Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said: Like I said, elite center I view similar in positional value to an elite LT. I can go back 10 years on this site and find posts where that’s my stance. What’s more look at the numbers of those 9/15 in the 1st or 2nd round, only 3 were true collegiate OG prospects during the draft process. The rest were viewed as OTs that either after injuries forced them to convert to OG in the pros (like an old CB converts to safety) or they were tried out at OT. Of course the success rate is higher with taking an interior lineman in the 1st round. That’s true with any position. But opportunity cost would mean that if we could get say: 1. Todd Heap, Ray Rice, and Marshal Yanda vs 2. Ben Grubbs, Torrey Smith, and Dennis Pitta vs 3. Jamal Lewis, Kelechi Osemele, and Dennis Pitta Which would you choose. Some might say I twisted the prospects to fit my point. But my point is about optimal value. Taking an OL in the first means you increase your chances of a great OL prospect, but significantly decrease your chances of selecting talent outside of round one. Using my theory of optimal value for a RB being in round 2. And OL round 3 and later. You find that the best combination pairs are first and third. But in today’s NFL the 1st pair quite easily wins out over even the third pairing. I’m not saying I dislike OL picks. Simply the later you pick them, the more increased value you can attain at other positions, where the difference between good and great and elite can truly be distingued. The difference between Yanda and Osemele and Grubbs isn’t paramount. Same with the difference between Jamal Lewis and Ray Rice. In fact one could argue that the later round player is better in each case. But the difference between missing out on a premier player in that round vs not missing out is where the biggest difference can be seen. I don't think we actually disagree on the premise. I think we disagree on the approach/priorities of what to draft. As I mentioned earlier, if our top need are an OG and a true Centerfielder, the difference in the player at OG you can get in round 1 vs round 3, means that the centerfielder "jumps" the OG as a priority to get picked first. Same with QB, pass rusher, OT, CB. With that in mind, I am and will most likely always be an oline guy, as I see a top unit as the best chance of succes. That top unit can be build by great coaching and lower round picks, but the chances of getting great players increases when picking OT, OG and OC high. Edit: My favorite approach though would be building an oline out of the Iowa and Wisconsin-style of lineman. Big, fat farmerboys who are angry with the world for shoveling **** in the childhood, only eating corn and more corn and always being cold. They just love the nastiness of the game, play hurt, injuried and a little dirty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berlin calling Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 54 minutes ago, Danand said: Edit: My favorite approach though would be building an oline out of the Iowa and Wisconsin-style of lineman. Big, fat farmerboys who are angry with the world for shoveling **** in the childhood, only eating corn and more corn and always being cold. They just love the nastiness of the game, play hurt, injuried and a little dirty. great post. if i didn't know you are from Denmark i'd believe you actually are one of those farmer boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danand Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, berlin calling said: great post. if i didn't know you are from Denmark i'd believe you actually are one of those farmer boys Not a farmer boy, but from a city with a lot of country side around it. Where I grew up, if you want to get an education at the college level you move away, those who don't want to stays. When I played football in my home town, the team was mixed with us from the local high school, bouncers, truck drivers and the likes. It was fun (and crazy times). Our coach was Dennis Cummings from Indianapolis that told me "as a running back, you run and you squat, and when you squat, it is *** to the grass. You know that you got deep enough if the grass is brown or you pulled up some straws. And always seek the contact, hit him, don't let him hit you". Fun character. I was all *** and thighs back then at 5'6 and 160 lbs. Walked like a friggin duck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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