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2017 Team Rookie Grades


OrangeCrush93

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5 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Very true. The Bolles pick was a lot like the Vance hire, both moves pleased virtually no one in the fan base.

The vast majority of the fans wanted Kyle and a smaller chunk wanted Toub, no one wanted Vance.

In the draft, most of us wanted Foster, some wanted one of the TEs, some wanted to trade up for McCaffrey and even if had to go OT with our first round pick, if memory serves, most preferred Ramczyk and Robinson to Bolles. 

Oh well. 

To take it one step further - it wasn't even the fanbase.  It's not like we have the all the info.  But almost every Big Board from those who did this work full-time had Foster somewhere in the top 10 of overall talent.   It was such an easy pick to make from a pure talent perspective.  The ONLY reason why he fell was for really bad misinformation on his shoulder (where the recovery rates for non-QB is known to be nearly 100 percent) and the overblown character issue that came up because of his run-in with the x-ray tech at the Combine.    He had his nose clean in HS and his entire time at 'Bama.   San Francisco had him #3 OVERALL on their big board - why they traded up to get him - with New Orleans on the phone telling him they were taking him at 1.32 (and then pivoted to next overall BPA - Ramczyk - there's a lesson there for those willing to pay attention, people). 

The Foster case is the classic case of a falling-elite-talent pick which has such a high chance of paying off - no on-the-field concerns, known elite talent.  And we passed.  For pure need.   As you said....oh well.

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6 minutes ago, Counselor said:

Yep we could have had Foster now and getting our LT at 5....

Or Foster now, RT Rd 2 (Dawkins/Moton), Whitworth FA instead of Leary...and Nelson at 1.5.    Rd 3 WR Golladay or Godwin instead of C-Henderson, move Sanders to slot when we are 3-wide.   CB could be so much deeper with Desmond King instead of Langley - who wouldn't be playing us 2x a year on the most talented team in our division.  And before people call hindsight - those same big boards had Dawkins/Moton as the next tier, being more RT-capable, and WR's Golladay/Godwin were well ahead of C-Henderson at WR, and Langley was NOWHERE in sight.   King was a frequent member on top-10 lists of guys not drafted on Day 2 starting Day 3.   

If Elway would just stop reaching for need as a 1-player away mentality and then reach badly for "his guy" who's nowhere near the board when we pick Day 2 there are just so many staggering combos with much, much better outcomes.   2017 is going to really hurt us barring some major turnarounds next year. 

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2 minutes ago, iLikeDefense said:

Honestly, I'd love us to go LT at 5 if Barkley and the QB's are gone but I think Elway believes Bolles I the LT of the future.

Yeah and he also believes Vance should be our coach in 2018... maybe Elway should just go now. Thanks John for all you have done but members on this forum can draft better. 

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8 minutes ago, Counselor said:

Yeah and he also believes Vance should be our coach in 2018... maybe Elway should just go now. Thanks John for all you have done but members on this forum can draft better. 

The thing is, drafting is no easy job.   We don't have the info, and for the most part, many of us are working with hindsight....except with the Day 2 history, we literally could have the CLE homeless guy as the only guy with a worse track record.    If you look at the most recent Draft threads the last 2-3 years, the CW picks available called on that night would have panned out much, much better than what Elway & Russell have come up with.   That's incredibly poor, to say the least.  They have all the info, and they're making the big whiffs.   That's a major problem.  

Inevitably some poster comes in and says "why don't you all quit your jobs and apply for the FO if you're so smart" - which is pure BS.   As fans, we're not supposed to be even close to as good as a FO.  The thing is, the Day 2 picks and the Foster pick were telegraphed as picks from those with way more knowledge than us...across the board.  That's what makes this hurt so much...because it's not just a fluke when it comes to Day 2, either.   Oh well.   At least we have Day 3....

It's absolutely correct that overall we've been a great organization.  So it's not all doom and gloom.  But our problems literally fall at our inability to hit on QB AND on Day 2 in our draft forever, and Day 1 on the right overall BPA (instead going for need) the last 2 picks (I think Simmons will literally be the first to break that Day 2 dry run of not even being able to get a decent starter, but that will be 1 for 13, when league-average of finding useful starters even where we pick is closer to 40+ percent, and usually in 5-6 years you hope to find one true difference-making gem, we're still 0-fer there).   What's discouraging is that with all the changes we made, we didn't address scouting and how we draft - we kept the same guys in charge there.  Man.

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25 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

It's absolutely correct that overall we've been a great organization.  So it's not all doom and gloom.  But our problems literally fall at our inability to hit on QB AND on Day 2 in our draft forever, and Day 1 on the right overall BPA (instead going for need) the last 2 picks (I think Simmons will literally be the first to break that Day 2 dry run of not even being able to get a decent starter, but that will be 1 for 13, when league-average of finding useful starters even where we pick is closer to 40+ percent, and usually in 5-6 years you hope to find one true difference-making gem, we're still 0-fer there).   What's discouraging is that with all the changes we made, we didn't address scouting and how we draft - we kept the same guys in charge there.  Man.

You can't build a championship competing team unless you draft well - and Elway has not been drafting well.

One reason that I have for optimism about the draft - in my opinion the best draft in the last few years was 2016 when Kubiak was integral to the decisions (and I blame Elway for the Lynch pick). Kubiak is now back in the building and hopefully will be able to stop Elway making the stupid picks he is prone to do.

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1 hour ago, Counselor said:

We have some hope that these players actually emerge.

C Henderson

D Henderson

J Butt

If even two of the three can become solid focal points of our offense we can improve greatly. But Vance has to get them on the field.

If for no reason other than this-- there is reason to be excited for 2018. 

Next year's rookie group will be fun because we basically get to add these three guys to next year's class, given that we didn't REALLY get to see them this year.

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1 hour ago, Counselor said:

We have some hope that these players actually emerge.

C Henderson

D Henderson

J Butt

If even two of the three can become solid focal points of our offense we can improve greatly. But Vance has to get them on the field.

I think that Butt and DeAngelo will be good, but I'm not that confident in Carlos Henderson. That was part of a bad third round by Elway in this past draft.

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I'm not a fan of 1st year rookie grades. Last year at this time most felt Gotsis was a bust. This year he's looking like a pretty good selection. It's amazing what one year of off season work, coaching and training will do. Bolles should follow a similar path. For this year he was about as expected. Started every game, still had penalty and technique issues but improved over the course of the season. He did seem to hit that rookie wall though.

As far as the rest, It's definitely an "Incomplete. I'm just curious which ones step up their game this spring.

With the limited coaching time allowed in their rookie season it's tougher for rookies to have an immediate impact than it was a decade ago.

 

 

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12 hours ago, AKRNA said:

I'm not a fan of 1st year rookie grades. Last year at this time most felt Gotsis was a bust. This year he's looking like a pretty good selection. It's amazing what one year of off season work, coaching and training will do. Bolles should follow a similar path. For this year he was about as expected. Started every game, still had penalty and technique issues but improved over the course of the season. He did seem to hit that rookie wall though.

As far as the rest, It's definitely an "Incomplete. I'm just curious which ones step up their game this spring.

With the limited coaching time allowed in their rookie season it's tougher for rookies to have an immediate impact than it was a decade ago.

 

 

On the other hand, if you look around the NFL there are a rookies making huge contributions in their rookie year. Juju, Hunt, Kamara, Kupp, Engram, Fournette. Obviously not everyone can hit like this, but on a year to year basis not hitting on guys that make immediate impacts is a major issue for this team. 

Gotsis is gonna be a rotation lineman. Meh. 

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9 minutes ago, champ11 said:

On the other hand, if you look around the NFL there are a rookies making huge contributions in their rookie year. Juju, Hunt, Kamara, Kupp, Engram, Fournette. Obviously not everyone can hit like this, but on a year to year basis not hitting on guys that make immediate impacts is a major issue for this team. 

Gotsis is gonna be a rotation lineman. Meh. 

Bolles had an impact yea he had growing pains, but he was was better than what was a turn style last year.

Bolles was the best lt in last years draft. I'm excited to see what a year of adding weight in the NFL strength and conditioning program does for him.

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25 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

Bolles had an impact yea he had growing pains, but he was was better than what was a turn style last year.

Bolles was the best lt in last years draft. I'm excited to see what a year of adding weight in the NFL strength and conditioning program does for him.

Bolles is definitely Elway's best ever offensive draft selection (LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO) but he was an average starter at very best. On a terrible team as part of a terrible line. All but one of the guys I listed are good starters on playoff teams. 

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