2017 Postseason Discussion Thread

[7DnBrnc53]

5 hours ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

The fact of the matter is that Tom Brady is about to have 6 championship rings as a non-game managing quarterback. If he was putting up Trent Dilfer numbers, it would be different. But he is consistently able to put his team on his back in the playoffs and win games, and while the other three dynasties had QB that can do that, Tom has done it the most. 

In the early-00's, he really didn't carry that team. That was up to the defense. They forced 29 turnovers in the playoffs during those three championship seasons.

If he did carry them to victory in a SB, it was the fourth one, and even then, he needed a great defensive play to save the win.

[germ-x]

2 hours ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

In the early-00's, he really didn't carry that team. That was up to the defense. They forced 29 turnovers in the playoffs during those three championship seasons.

If he did carry them to victory in a SB, it was the fourth one, and even then, he needed a great defensive play to save the win.

For comparison purposes the only year Brady was statistically worse than Elway in route to a SB was his first in ‘02.

I think there is a belief that Brady was a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson in his early SB wins, and he wasn’t.  His 1st in ‘02 sure, the rest he was playing at an elite or borderline elite level.

Further, I think there is a belief that he’s had an elite defense, simply because of Belichick having a defensive mind.  Also, not true.  The average total defensive ranking for the Patriots since Brady became a starter is 17th.  He’s also never had an elite running game to lean on, where on average they’re 15th.  The best defensive ranking for a Brady led team is 4th.  In almost half the seasons or so he’s played in the defense has been 20th overall or worse.

For a comparison, Brady has never statistically played on as dominant a team as Elway did in ‘97 or ‘98.  Where the weak link to those teams was passing offense.  By your logic here, should we not consider Elway’s 2 SB wins in his legacy as one of the best QBs ever?

@AKRNA made a post about other dynasties and what attributes to their success, a big portion of that was elite, top 2-3 defenses.  He lumped NE into that category, but it really made more of a case for Brady being the greatest of all-time than it did an argument against it.  Brady’s never in his career played on such a team. It makes far more of a case that he’s done and won more with inferior teams over an 18 year span than anyone in the history of the game.

[The Helicopter]

Everyone's cherry picking stats to rah rah chest bump their claim. This is bizarre, but not surprising. I'm not sure why people care so much about it. He's not your Dad. It's a guy, playing a sport with rules, and making money, and lifting a piece of metal and people riot over this stuff. Crazy...

[BroncosFan2010]

Quote

To me it just diminishes everything to do that. Why try to compare? Here's what you'd come up with. For HC, pretty excellent case can be for Lombardi. He took a joke of a franchise and in the next 9 years transformed them into a dynasty with 5 NFL Championship's including the 1st two SB's. Three in a row from 65-67. The most dominant team of the era. Who van say how many more championships he could have won if his health forced him out after his 2nd SB and he died two years later. I.m pretty sure his winning % is the highest ever also.

I do agree to a point that comparisons across eras are impossible, but they are an inevatibility and someone will always be looked towards to be labeled the GOAT. That's Brady right now.

Based on his tremendous personality and how many decades ahead of his time he was in regards to civil and gay rights, I really prefer Vince as a coach FWIW. Read the guys Wiki. He was a transformational character and we lost him too soon. Its hard to argue BB vs Lombardi without taking this into account, despite that fact it shouldn't matter in a football discussion.

[germ-x]

22 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

Everyone's cherry picking stats to rah rah chest bump their claim. This is bizarre, but not surprising. I'm not sure why people care so much about it. He's not your Dad. It's a guy, playing a sport with rules, and making money, and lifting a piece of metal and people riot over this stuff. Crazy...

It is a football forum.

[AKRNA]

10 hours ago, germ-x said:

For comparison purposes the only year Brady was statistically worse than Elway in route to a SB was his first in ‘02.

I think there is a belief that Brady was a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson in his early SB wins, and he wasn’t.  His 1st in ‘02 sure, the rest he was playing at an elite or borderline elite level.

Further, I think there is a belief that he’s had an elite defense, simply because of Belichick having a defensive mind.  Also, not true.  The average total defensive ranking for the Patriots since Brady became a starter is 17th.  He’s also never had an elite running game to lean on, where on average they’re 15th.  The best defensive ranking for a Brady led team is 4th.  In almost half the seasons or so he’s played in the defense has been 20th overall or worse.

For a comparison, Brady has never statistically played on as dominant a team as Elway did in ‘97 or ‘98.  Where the weak link to those teams was passing offense.  By your logic here, should we not consider Elway’s 2 SB wins in his legacy as one of the best QBs ever?

@AKRNA made a post about other dynasties and what attributes to their success, a big portion of that was elite, top 2-3 defenses.  He lumped NE into that category, but it really made more of a case for Brady being the greatest of all-time than it did an argument against it.  Brady’s never in his career played on such a team. It makes far more of a case that he’s done and won more with inferior teams over an 18 year span than anyone in the history of the game.

Just a few corrections germ-x. In Brady,s wins, the Pats scoring defense ranked, starting with 2001 on, 6, 1, 2, 8, 1. Their two losses the scoring d was ranked 15 and 2. Elways teams had scoring D's ranked 6th and 8th.

Anyway, it's the only dynasty many of you have ever seen. There will be more. One day you'll hear the same argument against the Pats some of us have heard with every new dynasty. Players are bigger and faster, the games changed, competition is better................... Pack was better than the Browns, Steelers were better than the Pack, 49ers were better than the Steelers. Pats are better than all of them...........

We don't even have an historical perspective on the Pats yet. It changes things. Why were the Browns so good, Graham or Paul Brown? Pretty good argument for Graham. Played 10 years and retired at 34. Won 7 championships and 3 league MVP,s. The Browns didn't win another championship until after Brown quit coaching a decade later.

Anyway, too bad you guys never had the chance to watch those teams. I saw 'em all except the Browns and my father used to rave about Graham. If you'd watched them in their hey day we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[iLikeDefense]

I think @AKRNA‘s point on scoring defense weighs more than total defense. NE has never been about a total shut down D, we’ve seen them get rushed or passed on a lot in games but do they ever give up 22+ points often? The hoodie, know that if his D can hold a team under or around their average scoring, his team will have a shot with Brady and co. 

Anyways, Brady is the best QB of all time. The Hoodie is the best HC of all time. They really are head and shoulders above every else in the league rn.

[AKRNA]

5 minutes ago, iLikeDefense said:

I think @AKRNA‘s point on scoring defense weighs more than total defense. NE has never been about a total shut down D, we’ve seen them get rushed or passed on a lot in games but do they ever give up 22+ points often? The hoodie, know that if his D can hold a team under or around their average scoring, his team will have a shot with Brady and co. 

Anyways, Brady is the best QB of all time. The Hoodie is the best HC of all time. They really are head and shoulders above every else in the league rn.

IMO scoring d is all that matters. This year we rated 3rd in yardage but tied for 22nd in scoring defense. Our record reflects that.

[7DnBrnc53]

8 minutes ago, iLikeDefense said:

Anyways, Brady is the best QB of all time. The Hoodie is the best HC of all time. They really are head and shoulders above every else in the league rn.

Thanks for establishing that for us .

11 hours ago, germ-x said:

For comparison purposes the only year Brady was statistically worse than Elway in route to a SB was his first in ‘02.

I think there is a belief that Brady was a Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson in his early SB wins, and he wasn’t.  His 1st in ‘02 sure, the rest he was playing at an elite or borderline elite level.

He wasn't playing at an elite level in 2003 and 04. In 2003, they were winning games 9-3 and 12-0, for crying out loud. And, in 04, he had Clock Killin' Corey Dillon to help him out. He didn't put up elite numbers until 2007, and that's because of Randy Moss (the real 2007 NFL MVP).

Which leads me to a discussion about defensive philosophies over the last 16 years, and how it has helped the Patriots.

During the Brady era, I have seen too many teams stick to cover high and zones. That is not right. Against the Pats, you need to be physical with their receivers and RB's at the line of scrimmage. Put more pressure on them than the QB. That is a key to Brady's success that people usually don't talk about.

And, in regards to Elway, that is why Brady has better stats. Elway played in a running offense the first ten years of his career, and they didn't send five receivers out into the pattern very often.

35 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

49ers were better than the Steelers. Pats are better than all of them...........

The 49ers weren't better than the Steelers. SF benefited from a gimmicky offense at a time where most teams had to defend what the majority of the teams were doing (strong ground games, throwing the ball down field). In my view, the 70's Steeler SB champs are the best ever, and that includes this 16-year run that NE has had.

[AKRNA]

2 minutes ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Thanks for establishing that for us .

 

The 49ers weren't better than the Steelers. SF benefited from a gimmicky offense at a time where most teams had to defend what the majority of the teams were doing (strong ground games, throwing the ball down field). In my view, the 70's Steeler SB champs are the best ever, and that includes this 16-year run that NE has had.

Sorry, you misunderstood, I was just making a point. Basically the "flavor of the day" is always the best ever.

You're right, those Steeler teams were awesome. On D, Outrageous front 7, guys like Blount and Shell behind 'em. The offense to me was always defined by their OL, guys like Webster. Didn't hurt a bit to have Bradshaw, Harris, Swann, etc at the skill positions.

[7DnBrnc53]

Just now, AKRNA said:

Sorry, you misunderstood, I was just making a point. Basically the "flavor of the day" is always the best ever.

OK. Yeah, I should have gotten that. I just got carried away.

[iLikeDefense]

1 hour ago, 7DnBrnc53 said:

Thanks for establishing that for us

I try since some have a hard time grasping this.