kyle21121 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Yea I'm not totally sure how I feel about Froome not from any possible scandal I just always root against dominance much like I rooted against Lance prior to the scandal and something I often think about with Lance was how could I not have known he was doping? In retrospect it seems so obvious there is no way he could have won like he did or how he did and there were certainly moments when I felt like that with Froome more so in the Vuelta this year it just seems like he was that much better than anybody else and the team was just that much better than any other team it's hard not to at least think about that sort of thing. I don't recall ever seeing Lance in any sort of difficulty and I seem to see Froome have one bad day in each GT I've ever seen him participate in. I'm not gonna accuse anyone but even being out of the conversation and not hearing too much about people statements it is something I've at least thought about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempus Posted September 13, 2017 Author Share Posted September 13, 2017 51 minutes ago, kyle21121 said: Yea I'm not totally sure how I feel about Froome not from any possible scandal I just always root against dominance much like I rooted against Lance prior to the scandal and something I often think about with Lance was how could I not have known he was doping? In retrospect it seems so obvious there is no way he could have won like he did or how he did and there were certainly moments when I felt like that with Froome more so in the Vuelta this year it just seems like he was that much better than anybody else and the team was just that much better than any other team it's hard not to at least think about that sort of thing. I don't recall ever seeing Lance in any sort of difficulty and I seem to see Froome have one bad day in each GT I've ever seen him participate in. I'm not gonna accuse anyone but even being out of the conversation and not hearing too much about people statements it is something I've at least thought about. Sadly, I think that's the tainted nature of cycling. People assume they must be doping because cycling has a history of it and they are a dominant team. I wouldn't be surprised if they were doping, but I'm more happy to watch greatness and assume innocence. It's no fun if you think everyone is cheating. If Froome never had a bad day and won every race he entered, there may be concern. But, he has bad days and he doesn't win everything. It took him four attempts to win the Vuelta. Sky should be the best with the best riders. Their budget dwarfs the rest of the peloton. It's how they can afford the Superdomestiques, who otherwise would likely be leaders at other teams. Thomas, Poels, Landa, Kwiatkowski and probably Nieve, could all lead a team at a GT. That's how Sky have multiple people at the end of climbs, they have a team of GC guys haha. But, it's not always perfect as we have seen. Which is why I prefer to think that Froome is just one of the all time greats in an all time great team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Yea but people are kinda conditioned that way it's in no way fair and I certainly would love to assume innocence and of course the budget is huge and it's an astounding collection of riders who could be GC guys but still it's hard to just completely ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kempus Posted September 14, 2017 Author Share Posted September 14, 2017 World Championships are in a couple of days. Will be interesting to see who becomes World Champion. It's a big prize in the cycling world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle21121 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 14 minutes ago, kempus said: World Championships are in a couple of days. Will be interesting to see who becomes World Champion. It's a big prize in the cycling world. Will they be on Eurosport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTexans Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 No Cav for GB. The course is leaning towards Classic type riders rather than out and out sprinters. A breakaway has a chance. Peter Sagan heavy favourite. I'd like to see Kwiatkowski up there after his work in the TdF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 What makes Classics races, or this World Championship course, more suited for some riders than grand tour GC riders? I get that with no real mountains that is a big place where people, especially sprinters, can't hang, but are the GC guys really not good enough to be favorites in these races? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTexans Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 1 hour ago, mse326 said: What makes Classics races, or this World Championship course, more suited for some riders than grand tour GC riders? I get that with no real mountains that is a big place where people, especially sprinters, can't hang, but are the GC guys really not good enough to be favorites in these races? I think the GC guys could probably hang, but they just aren't tailored to these kind of courses. You've got to remember the GC guys spend months training for the gruelling days of major tours, these kinds of races just aren't suited to them. You also have to think, nobody is going to let them get in a breakaway and then aren't going to win a bunch sprint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, texans_uk said: I think the GC guys could probably hang, but they just aren't tailored to these kind of courses. You've got to remember the GC guys spend months training for the gruelling days of major tours, these kinds of races just aren't suited to them. You also have to think, nobody is going to let them get in a breakaway and then aren't going to win a bunch sprint. I guess my thought is that in theory they should have stronger legs that maybe they can push the pace fast enough that the sprinters wouldn't be able to hang. So then I guess my next question is why stage races are generally held in higher esteem. Why is a stage race GC guy considered better than a great one-day racer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTexans Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 6 minutes ago, mse326 said: I guess my thought is that in theory they should have stronger legs that maybe they can push the pace fast enough that the sprinters wouldn't be able to hang. It's kinda like comparing a 100m runner with a 1500m runner with a 10km runner. The 10km guys are your GC guys they are your GT podium finishers. Your 1500m guys are your classics riders, they have a good deal of pace and stamina, they can hang to a degree with the sprinters and the long distance but not regularly, then you have the 100m runner who can sprint but have no stamina. Or at least that's been my take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Just now, texans_uk said: It's kinda like comparing a 100m runner with a 1500m runner with a 10km runner. The 10km guys are your GC guys they are your GT podium finishers. Your 1500m guys are your classics riders, they have a good deal of pace and stamina, they can hang to a degree with the sprinters and the long distance but not regularly, then you have the 100m runner who can sprint but have no stamina. Or at least that's been my take. Makes sense. How often is there crossover? Like Peter Sagan I know was a favorite to win sprint stages in the TDF. So is he both a classic and sprinter? Are there any guys that classic and GC still around or is that time gone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTexans Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 Just now, mse326 said: Makes sense. How often is there crossover? Like Peter Sagan I know was a favorite to win sprint stages in the TDF. So is he both a classic and sprinter? Are there any guys that classic and GC still around or is that time gone? @kempus will know far more than I. I'm a TdF fanboy who dabbles in other Tours and the odd classic or WC. Cav was my big inspiration. I think there are a few like Sagan who can compete with sprinters on a good day although only when conditions allow. In a straight up sprint Kittel, Griepel and Cavendish destroy Sagan. It's rare to find a GC who also competes in the Classics. I don't even think Lance won many? Most of those guys target the tours and the tours alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTexans Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 I'm struggling to find the last tour winner who won one of the monuments. Nibali won the Lombardi in 2015 but didn't win a GT that year. Valverde has won 4. Typically you have sprinters, time trialists or puncheurs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mse326 Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 3 minutes ago, texans_uk said: I'm struggling to find the last tour winner who won one of the monuments. Nibali won the Lombardi in 2015 but didn't win a GT that year. Valverde has won 4. Typically you have sprinters, time trialists or puncheurs. I know the first two, what are puncheurs? Are all GC riders puncheurs because many of them don't seem good in time trials nor would they obviously be sprinters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKTexans Posted September 14, 2017 Share Posted September 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, mse326 said: I know the first two, what are puncheurs? Are all GC riders puncheurs because many of them don't seem good in time trials nor would they obviously be sprinters Sorry, puncheurs are guys like Sagan or Gilbert, they are very successful at short steep climbs. Most of Sagan's tour victories have come on stages with short steep finishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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