Cycling Thread: Bernal wins the TDF

[TedLavie]

13 hours ago, kempus said:

Nibali out of the tour due to that crash. Massive shame to see another big dog bow out.

Yeah. Plus Nibali always comes strong in 3rd weeks and likes attacking. For the show he is a better asset than a Quintana for instance

[The Hitch]

14 hours ago, kempus said:

You're correct about Landa. He had the Giro podium just before he went to Sky, when he was on Astana. Indeed, hence why I didn't mention Kwiatkowski as an example. Kwiatkowski, Wiggins and Cav are the thee examples of Sky going out and getting a massive name. The point is still relevant, though. It's not like they're Movistar going out and buying 3 GT contenders for the same race.

There will always be sceptics, because of the nature of cycling. If one day they're found to be cheating, I will hold my hands up. Until that day, innocence must be assumed 

So if sky is innocent why do they lie about everything from their zero tolerance policy to the multiple blatant lies Brailsford gave about the jiffy bag (total accident right) to the data they release etc. 

 

Some coincidence that a team that can't keep the truth straight on anything also happens to magically be able to turn any rider they sign into one of the world's best climbers and is about to turn a third nobody into a tdf winner. 

"guilty until proven innocent" is just a convenient slogan to sleep well at night. BTW if you doubt froomes results (like pretty much everyone outside of great Britain does anyway) he doesn't go to jail or anything. I agree with guilty until prooven innocent in that ppl shouldn't be legally punished for crimes they haven't been found guilty of. 

 

Froome can keep his results and even the disgraced wiggins can keep his joke tour from 2012 that sky probably want forgotten at this stage too.

 

But that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to form opinions based on the facts out there (and also the facts they research themselves because I notice a lot of fans of athletes choose not to read anything about how doping works and demand that everyone else assumes a position of ignorance on the subject) 

Its perfectly reasonable to doubt the words of conmen even if a shoddy and demonstrably corrupt system hasn't found them guilty. This is the same organization and system where lance just gave a donation to the uci and was given free reigns for a decade. The same sport which anti doping experts like pound and ashenden say is still as dirty as ever and a 38 year old valverde who somehow passed every test he ever took (hint its probably not a good sign for the efficiency of the tests) is still dominating like in his golden years. 

 

In this context to believe that froome who couldn't come top 100 to save his life at easier races than the tour until he was 26 has just "trained hard" to become basically the greatest of all time with his 3gts in a row, is optimistic. To believe that they turned two other absolute non climbers who happen to be from the same country, into tdf champions is, well everyone has a right to their opinion. But judging by the boos as well as the massive decline in viewership I think its a less and less common opinion with every passing year that sky have 5 of the last ten riders on every mountain stage of the tour de France. 

[kempus]

11 hours ago, The Hitch said:

Some coincidence that a team  is about to turn a third nobody into a tdf winner. 

I'll deal with this first. You're delusional if you are trying to claim that Wiggins and Thomas are nobodies. Wiggins has 5 Olympic gold medals and Thomas has 2 to go along with multiple UCI World Championship golds. They're about as far away from nobodies as you can get. Wiggins only committed to road cycling in 2009, where he finished 3rd in the Tour De France. Clearly the potential was there, unless you think Sky was doping him whilst he was riding for Garmin?

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But that doesn't mean people aren't allowed to form opinions based on the facts out there (and also the facts they research themselves because I notice a lot of fans of athletes choose not to read anything about how doping works and demand that everyone else assumes a position of ignorance on the subject) 

Fell free to form whatever opinion you wish. Nobody can stop you from doing that. However, you're basically assuming someone is guilty because of a hunch. There is no evidence that Froome has cheated, other than one elevated reading of sabutamol, which isn't even a performance enhancer. I think your issue is more cynicism towards cycling as a whole, which I get. Cycling has a very dirty past.

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Its perfectly reasonable to doubt the words of conmen even if a shoddy and demonstrably corrupt system hasn't found them guilty. This is the same organization and system where lance just gave a donation to the uci and was given free reigns for a decade. The same sport which anti doping experts like pound and ashenden say is still as dirty as ever and a 38 year old valverde who somehow passed every test he ever took (hint its probably not a good sign for the efficiency of the tests) is still dominating like in his golden years. 

Again, this is you having cynicism for cycling as a whole. Sky are just the most successful team of the past few years, so you assume they're cheating too. 

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In this context to believe that froome who couldn't come top 100 to save his life at easier races than the tour until he was 26 has just "trained hard" to become basically the greatest of all time with his 3gts in a row, is optimistic.

Froome didn't turn professional until he was 22. In 2007 he was tested as part of the UCI development programme, his peak power was measured at at 540 W, the threshold power at 420 W and the maximum oxygen uptake of 80.2 ml/kg/min, at a weight of 75.6 kg (167 lb). This shows that he has elite physiological potential. To put that into context, the data he released after his dominant 2015 TDF win is as follows.  Froome's peak power was measured at 525 W; his threshold power, at 419 W, oxygen uptake was measured at 84.6 ml/kg/min. At the current weight of 69.9 kg (154 lb) . Rather similar, no? His VO2 max went up because of improvements in training and loss of weight. His peak power went down because of less mass. Unless you think he was doping in 2007 whilst at Team Konica Minolta?  These are the facts, ignore the raw data if you wish.

Froome was also diagnosed with parasitic disease bilharzia in 2010. This again is pointed to as a reason why Froome developed later into a GT contender. The next year in 2011, he finished second at the Vuelta. Building to his second in the TDF and 4th at the Vuelta in 2012. 

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To believe that they turned two other absolute non climbers who happen to be from the same country, into tdf champions is, well everyone has a right to their opinion. But judging by the boos as well as the massive decline in viewership I think its a less and less common opinion with every passing year that sky have 5 of the last ten riders on every mountain stage of the tour de France. 

I already stated Wiggins and Thomas' pedigree earlier. Calling them non climbers is a fallacy. The French hate the British dominating their race, cry me a river. Froome receives nowhere near the vitriol he receives at the TDF, from any other race on the calendar. Perhaps France needs to develop their own legitimate GC contender rather than hating others?

For the record, I've watched and loved the TDF since the late 90s. Long before Britain was even remotely relevant as a road cycling nation.

Edited July 21, 2018 by kempus

[kempus]

That was a surprisingly great stage. The final climb was absolutely savage. I thought Froome was going to be dropped at one point. Thomas looked almost unbreakable, Dumoulin too. Roglic with a great ride to pick up some seconds too. 

[kempus]

Another win for Alaphilippe, also strengthening his hold on the polka dot jersey. He's having a sensational race. His descending was insane today. No changes in the GC. I expect serious fire works tomorrow.

[mse326]

Pepper spray and two crashes. That's how you keep people interested.

[kempus]

I've never seen a TDF stage like todays one. 65km, 3 massive mountains, 38km of climbing and 3100m of altitude gain. There is going to be fireworks. There will be changes in the GC, just depends how large and from who.

[kyle21121]

3 hours ago, kempus said:

I've never seen a TDF stage like todays one. 65km, 3 massive mountains, 38km of climbing and 3100m of altitude gain. There is going to be fireworks. There will be changes in the GC, just depends how large and from who.

Yeah that a stage looks bonkers. I wanna see Bardet or Roglic or even Tom D try and make a move on the final climb. I’m curious if Thomas can stay on top because if he loses very little or no time today I expect he wins the tour. I wonder if someone in the 6-12 range goes out on the break and can gain real time. After yesterday’s stage I really expect stuff to happen today. 

[kempus]

1 hour ago, kyle21121 said:

Yeah that a stage looks bonkers. I wanna see Bardet or Roglic or even Tom D try and make a move on the final climb. I’m curious if Thomas can stay on top because if he loses very little or no time today I expect he wins the tour. I wonder if someone in the 6-12 range goes out on the break and can gain real time. After yesterday’s stage I really expect stuff to happen today. 

I think everyone will attack. I'm interesed to see if there's any team orders of Thomas not chasing down Froome or vice versa.

[kyle21121]

2 hours ago, kempus said:

I think everyone will attack. I'm interesed to see if there's any team orders of Thomas not chasing down Froome or vice versa.

Oh yea for sure. I guess I meant an attack that sticks and you have a chance not just a small attack where you gain an advantage of 18 seconds and it sticks right around there for 9km before being caught. A real gotta chase him down kind of move. Which we haven’t really seen against Froome in the past few years from anyone relevant.

Im really not sure what happens with Sky. I know Froome will want to win and Sky definitely would favour him at this moment but if I’m Thomas I think I can win and I’d want to try and win it now. I’m not sure if we will see any inter-squad attacking or not I’m guessing Froome probably secretly hopes he cracks today. 

[kempus]

It was a pretty great stage, as I expected. Quintana with a great solo ride. Froome and Bardet cracked. Thomas looks imperious. Realistically, Froome is probably done. I'm interested to see what Sky do with him. Will they launch him as a wild card or have him ride for Thomas? I think they should just let him attack from way out and see what everyone else does. Force Dumoulin to chase him. One last interesting stage before the TT.

[mse326]

Just finished stage 17, was out all yesterday. Was not expecting Froome to be the one out of the three to crack. Don't see any way that this isn't Thomas's win now. 

I'm actually more interested in what Sky does next year, rather than Froome this year. Thomas is apparently staying with Sky. What do you do in next years Tour with both Froome and Thomas. Do they run it like Movistar is with multiple leaders? Is one of them not going to race the Tour (extremely doubtful)? Does one of them agree to be 2nd fiddle? 

[kempus]

4 hours ago, mse326 said:

Just finished stage 17, was out all yesterday. Was not expecting Froome to be the one out of the three to crack. Don't see any way that this isn't Thomas's win now. 

I'm actually more interested in what Sky does next year, rather than Froome this year. Thomas is apparently staying with Sky. What do you do in next years Tour with both Froome and Thomas. Do they run it like Movistar is with multiple leaders? Is one of them not going to race the Tour (extremely doubtful)? Does one of them agree to be 2nd fiddle? 

It's a good point about next years tour. You would presume that Thomas, as the defending champion (elect), will be adamant about riding it again. I would also presume that Froome wants that 5th title badly. I don't think Sky will ride both of them, it makes for a potentially poor dynamic, even if it gives them an excellent insurance policy. 

I actually think Froome would be better off not riding it. Go for both the Giro and Vualta and win a couple more GTs. I think that adds more to his legacy, at this point. It may also ease the negativity towards him if he doesn't ride it for a year. I think this year has proved that a Giro/Tour double is practically impossible. He should go for Giro/Vuelta and let Thomas ride the Tour. I'm doubtful he would buy into that though.

[kempus]

I hope Sky let Froome go beserk today. Attack half way through the stage again. Put Dumoulin under serious pressure. The worst that can happen is Froome cracks and drops out of the top 3, which I doubt he cares about. Would put every other team under serious pressure and give Thomas an ally up the road of it came to it. I can't see any way Sky lose if they employ that strategy.

[mse326]

11 hours ago, kempus said:

I think this year has proved that a Giro/Tour double is practically impossible

But doesn't Dumoulin's form say otherwise. Obviously he isn't winning either, but it isn't because he didn't have the form to win both. Ultimately someone just did a bit better (and this would be much closer if it wasn't for that mechanical costing him over a minute).