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Leader

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2 hours ago, HighCalebR said:

Want to post the gif where he knocked Kelvin TF out? 

I'm fine with the trade, I think it was fair for both sides. He definitely still was our best coverage safety, hopefully Tramon can fill in nicely back there.

Pettine likes a little more specialized safeties unlike Capers. HaHa wasn't coming back and compensation for safeties is poor, so the trade was the best route.

Why people gotta act like haha belongs on special teams?

I wasn't too happy about the trade at first, but there was some flaws in his game that can't be overlooked. With the many Redzone issues,  low effort plays, and the angles he takes when he tackles were pretty awful. He had some nice turnovers against the Bills and 49ers, but overall they weren't enough to sweep his other issues under the rug. 

If Tramon can be better in those areas, especially the redzone, I believe we will be fine. I do think however he won't be as great in run support, but the good thing is he will be the deep safety compared to a box saftey.

Edited by Gopackgonerd
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AG20:  Bad play, sure, but you're isoing him up against the best RB in the league in the open field with a head of steam. You've got bigger problems here than HaHa. Let's talk about Blake Martinez and the importance of not getting reached. Then let's talk about Blake Martinez and going upfield when you get reached.  (Btw - I couldnt quote your comment w/o bringing the images forward as well, so I just copied/pasted it).  @AlexGreen#20

Far as I'm concerned, its an image of yet another bad angle / lack of full effort (?) / bad (to non-existent) tackling - from HHCD.
I'm not busting balls. Thats just not my intent, interest or style. I've just seen too much of too little production from the guy. It seemed our last line of defense was continually late to put out the fire and when he finally got there - often he'd only throw half a bucket of water.

For whatever reason - ultimately its not our job (or necessity) to figure out what was in the guys head and how that translated into his "on the field" talent/production - what we can see. But eventually we've got to account for why all these image of him exist. Just simply accept that they do. NOW somebody wanna lay it off on a coach or two (?) or scheme? Fine - not a problem - could use the clarification - so long as its actually warranted and does provide clarification as opposed to adding another log to the "just fire somebody" fire.

I see a player that gives less than a $hit to do his job. It's not in his heart. Is it every play? No. He makes some - just not enough to rid himself of the stink - and the compare / contrast is stark indeed to another player - one who's letting it all hang out. Defending his responsibility like its a battle in a war. Tackling the guy like if he doesnt it'll cost us a TD. 

Give me more Jaire Alexanders in my secondary.

I've nothing against HHCD. Liked him. Wished and wish him well - but we dont need any more of his half-hearted effort.

So - we got a fourth for him? Fine with me. Move on and lets win some games.

Edited by Leader
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11 minutes ago, Leader said:

AG20:  Bad play, sure, but you're isoing him up against the best RB in the league in the open field with a head of steam. You've got bigger problems here than HaHa. Let's talk about Blake Martinez and the importance of not getting reached. Then let's talk about Blake Martinez and going upfield when you get reached.  (Btw - I couldnt quote your comment w/o bringing the images forward as well, so I just copied/pasted it).  @AlexGreen#20

Far as I'm concerned, its an image of yet another bad angle / lack of full effort (?) / bad (to non-existent) tackling - from HHCD.
I'm not busting balls. Thats just not my intent, interest or style. I've just seen too much of too little production from the guy. It seemed our last line of defense was continually late to put out the fire and when he finally got there - often he'd only throw half a bucket of water.

For whatever reason - ultimately its not our job (or necessity) to figure out what was in the guys head and how that translated into his "on the field" talent/production - what we can see. But eventually we've got to account for why all these image of him exist. Just simply accept that they do. NOW somebody wanna lay it off on a coach or two (?) or scheme? Fine - not a problem - could use the clarification - so long as its actually warranted and does provide clarification as opposed to adding another log to the "just fire somebody" fire.

I see a player that gives less than a $hit to do his job. It's not in his heart. Is it every play? No. He makes some - just not enough to rid himself of the stink - and the compare / contrast is stark indeed to another player - one who's letting it all hang out. Defending his responsibility like its a battle in a war. Tackling the guy like if he doesnt it'll cost us a TD. 

Give me more Jaire Alexanders in my secondary.

I've nothing against HHCD. Liked him. Wished and wish him well - but we dont need any more of his half-hearted effort.

So - we got a fourth for him? Fine with me. Move on and lets win some games.

Why are we putting this on effort? Gurleys a stud, it's entirely possible HHCD was asked to make a very difficult play, gave it his all, and just couldn't out it off. There's such a rush to ascribe personal failings to guys in this team, I don't get it.

It has nothing to do with coaching. In run defense, you have a man for every gap. If a guy gets "reached", the offensive lineman beats him across his face and seals him out of the gap like what happens to Martinez here, you end up with two defenders in one gap and no defenders in another day. Gurley hit the undefenedes gap that existed because Martinez got burned.

This is the pass play equivalent of Tramon getting torched clean on a go route and HaHa missing a tackle there. Should we be upset about HaHa's missed tackle that was responsible for 6 yards, sure. But we should be a lot more upset about Tramon getting torched deep for 40.

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22 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Why are we putting this on effort? Gurleys a stud, it's entirely possible HHCD was asked to make a very difficult play, gave it his all, and just couldn't out it off. There's such a rush to ascribe personal failings to guys in this team, I don't get it

The lens of my camera is open wider than just this play. Fact he didnt close it down and make this one tackle isnt "the final straw" of my thinking. Based on his overall play - we can do better. If HHCD has a reservoir of talent he was holding at bay (for whatever reason....) I cant say. I guess we'll see what he puts out for WA. I can only make a conclusion based on what I see - and I think we can do better.

I agree with you - its not on the coaches/scheme.

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PackersWire:

Turns out, the Green Bay Packers trading away Ha Ha Clinton-Dix didn’t just open up an opportunity at safety, it paved the way for Mike Pettine’s defense to take advantage of its ascending depth at the cornerback position.

On Thursday, veteran cornerback Tramon Williams confirmed he'll be moving to safety to help replace Clinton-Dix, who was dealt to Washington on Tuesday.

The move could have immediate benefits for Williams, a few cornerbacks on the roster and the Packers defense as a whole.

For starters, Williams will transition to a position he played in the past. He started at least two games at safety with the Browns in 2016 and said he’ll have no issues making the transition again.

Williams has been reliable as ever while starting seven games at cornerack to begin 2018, but a chance to play safety could amplify his impact for the Packers defense.

Williams said he’s excited to “see the whole field” and have an opportunity to communicate to the entire defense, two things he wasn’t able to do as a perimeter cornerback. Playing safety will allow Williams to have both eyes on the quarterback, read the field from a new angle and rely on his tape study and instincts to make plays and help others.

Even at age 35, instincts, quickness and football IQ remain three of Williams’ most valuable assets.

Moving Williams will create ripple effects at cornerback. Jaire Alexander and Kevin King are locked in as starters, but playing Williams at safety should open up immediate opportunities for rookie Josh Jackson and veteran newcomer Bashaud Breeland, who is dying to get on the field.

Jackson has played in the slot for much of his rookie season. Breeland has experience inside and on the perimeter. Both are physical players with length and ball skills.

Together, the four cornerbacks give Pettine a tough, athletic and versatile group to throw at all kinds of passing games.

On Sunday in Los Angeles, the Packers played Williams in the slot and had Alexander and King man the outside. The secondary responded with its best game of the season, highlighted by Alexander providing an "alpha performance"

The wildcard here is Breeland. Signed in late September, the former Redskins cornerback still hasn’t made his season debut for the Packers. But his time is coming, and if he’s as capable as he was for long stretches of last season in Washington, the Packers are going to be four-deep at a pivotal position on the field.

Which brings us to the larger point: Moving Williams to safety should allow Pettine to get his best players on the field at one time.

The Packers’ safety position without Williams was a little bit of mystery, with Kentrell Brice, Jermaine Whitehead, Josh Jones and Raven Greene making up an odd mix of options. Brice, Whitehead and Greene are undrafted free agents and Jones hasn’t sniffed the field in his second season.

Williams at safety should solve that problem. Brice can remain a de facto starter and play closer to the line of scrimmage, while Whitehead can stay in his subpackage roving linebacker role. Who knows how Pettine wants to use Jones moving forward, but at least he doesn’t have to fit a round peg into a square hole.

Of course, this all works in theory. Williams must prove capable of handling new roles at safety, the cornerbacks have to rise to meet new challenges and the rest of the safeties need to elevate their overall play and become more reliable game-to-game. It’s a lot to ask, but there’s comfort in knowing the Packers have a plan in place.

And if it all works out, and everyone takes advantage of new opportunities, there’s a distinct possibility Pettine’s defense will emerge better suited over the long haul.

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8 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Really confused why everyone seems to think Tramon is a lock to be a good safety. I get that safety is easier to play than CB, especially the role that Tramon will be playing, but this is still a position change. 

You just hope he doesn't get one on one with a bigger back, looking back at the Detroit game he looked pretty awful trying to tackle Blunt and Johnson. I think the main reason they made this move was because they want more of their best DBs on the field while keeping Tramon on the field, getting Josh Jackson on the field will be a big upgrade imo. Sucks that it took Tramon getting moved to saftey to do it though. But he's their only veteran presence on the field out of the DBs unless you count Brice.

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14 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Really confused why everyone seems to think Tramon is a lock to be a good safety. I get that safety is easier to play than CB, especially the role that Tramon will be playing, but this is still a position change. 

Is it that people think he will be a lock to be a good safety, or is it that they just think that the change in quality won't be large enough to worry about?

When the deep safety is lined up 18 yds deep, and often the first step is backwards, they aren't going to be a force in run support.  If the assignment is to cover the deep middle and not be effective on the deep edge as well, then how difficult is it?

In a role like that, then I would contend that all you need is ball skills and a knowledge of offensive route concepts.  Tramon has those.

Will he be a top safety? No, but the position as it has been used lately doesn't require a top safety.  

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15 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Really confused why everyone seems to think Tramon is a lock to be a good safety. I get that safety is easier to play than CB, especially the role that Tramon will be playing, but this is still a position change. 

It's not that he's a lock to be a good safety, it's that it puts better CBs on the field than him. If HHCD would have avoided whatever tackling allergy he acquired last year I think Tramon deep and him in the box would've made an excellent secondary. With Haha gone, if we just hold the line there, we improve with Jackson and Breeland playing more corner.

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1 minute ago, Packerraymond said:

It's not that he's a lock to be a good safety, it's that it puts better CBs on the field than him. If HHCD would have avoided whatever tackling allergy he acquired last year I think Tramon deep and him in the box would've made an excellent secondary. With Haha gone, if we just hold the line there, we improve with Jackson and Breeland playing more corner.

Posing the next question then,

Why aren't more people upset that Tramon was playing CB if we supposedly have better CBs on the bench?

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9 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Posing the next question then,

Why aren't more people upset that Tramon was playing CB if we supposedly have better CBs on the bench?

Cause -

1. I personally didnt "conclude" there was a problem with Tramon's "keeping up in coverage" skills till the LAR game.
2. CBJJ is still growing into his role at this level and Breeland hasnt seen the field since last year  -  so the options were limited.

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3 minutes ago, Leader said:

Cause -

1. I personally didnt "conclude" there was a problem with Tramon's "keeping up in coverage" skills till the LAR game.
2. CBJJ is still growing into his role at this level and Breeland hasnt seen the field since last year  -  so the options were limited.

So we're gambling that JJ isn't going to have terrible growing pains and that Breeland can still play ball after his foot almost rotted off (obviously  being hyperbolic here)

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10 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

So we're gambling that JJ isn't going to have terrible growing pains and that Breeland can still play ball after his foot almost rotted off (obviously  being hyperbolic here)

Well - you and I arent gambling anything. The folks that are inside the practices - the locker room - determined HHCD's play was wanting (for whatever reason, its a decision made at this juncture) and that Breeland's previously rotting off foot is going to get him thru the game.

Personally - I'd still like to pick and chose the guy CBJJ is put into man coverage against. Not a knock against him and he's shown (apparent) growth in this area since college - but he's not a finished product IMO - or until I actually see him closing down some guy or becoming a PBU machine. Good size? Long arms? The right attitude? Yes, yes and yes.

Breeland? I'm working off a highlight video ha! Shaky ground indeed!

But seriously - HHCDs play was wanting - we've got a diverse group of options - so lets do it. Are there risks? Certainly. But the rewards could be many. If the chips fall right, we might be on the verge of fielding a seriously good secondary  -  and what a breath of fresh air that would be eh? Long time coming.  

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4 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

So we're gambling that JJ isn't going to have terrible growing pains and that Breeland can still play ball after his foot almost rotted off (obviously  being hyperbolic here)

Obviously a bit of coaches and gm spin going on. Gute didn't want HHCD walking for nothing and is quietly adding a stockpile of picks for what could be a very deep class. According to Nagler(?) defensive coaches were not sad to see HHCD go. He was obviously playing for himself and his money, so good riddance. Pretty sure the coaches have been planning for this. I like the idea of Tramon at safety, and hope his body can hold up. I would hope he at least limits explosive plays. You gotta see what Jackson and Breeland have at some point and we can do so with them being #3 and #4 CB's if Jaire and King hold up. I don't know if all of this translates to wins, but I don't think anyone will look back and say trading HHCD was a death blow. I mean, throw out the Buffalo game and we are #29 in points allowed. Added bonus if Breeeland's foot falls off in game

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