Random Packer News & Notes

[Leader]

 

[SSG]

On 7/5/2018 at 5:18 PM, Gopackgonerd said:

It's not really a big loss when he's only gone for 2 weeks and you're a pass first team, and I think youre slightly exaggerating how poor Williams and Ty is, if they stay healthy those guys can do some damage, especially Williams whom got so much better at the end of the year. You just need to use these guys correctly, Ty more so as a 3rd down back will suit him better.

It might have been a slight exaggeration but I'm not so sure.  When Williams was starting he was more of a plodder that offered next to nothing in regards to big plays.  He had just 6 carries on the season where he managed double digits in yards.  In comparison, Rip had five 10+ yard carries on 34 carries in 2016.  Williams was much more likely to get stopped behind the line of scrimmage or for no gain than he was to get a big chunk run.   I don't view around 20 carries for fewer than 70 yards rushing as a quality outing for a RB.  

Before Monty went down with injury he wasn't even managing 3 yards per carry.  He was pretty terrible when it came to running the ball.  I  agree, he's certainly more of a 3rd down back given his terrible inconsistancies as a runner.  Switching him to RB has been a rather large failure IMO.  

[packfanfb]

On 7/4/2018 at 6:48 PM, HorizontoZenith said:

We wouldn't have used Jones for the first two weeks anyway.  Only time we'll use him is when everybody else is dinged up.  He'll rush for 140 yards, 60 yards, 100 yards and 120 yards, Montgomery will be healthy, we won't go back to Jones for three weeks and then when we do he'll get two or three carried a game.

Basically you're just calling MM a dumbass. No disagreement here if it unfolds that way. 

[MacReady]

Just now, packfanfb said:

Basically you're just calling MM a dumbass. No disagreement here if it unfolds that way. 

No.  I really like McCarthy and think he's a top 3 head coach in this league, it's just I think this is one of his weaknesses. 

[packfanfb]

7 hours ago, SSG said:

It might have been a slight exaggeration but I'm not so sure.  When Williams was starting he was more of a plodder that offered next to nothing in regards to big plays.  He had just 6 carries on the season where he managed double digits in yards.  In comparison, Rip had five 10+ yard carries on 34 carries in 2016.  Williams was much more likely to get stopped behind the line of scrimmage or for no gain than he was to get a big chunk run.   I don't view around 20 carries for fewer than 70 yards rushing as a quality outing for a RB.  

Before Monty went down with injury he wasn't even managing 3 yards per carry.  He was pretty terrible when it came to running the ball.  I  agree, he's certainly more of a 3rd down back given his terrible inconsistancies as a runner.  Switching him to RB has been a rather large failure IMO.  

I mean if you're not in the camp that Jones is hands down the better RB vs Williams and Monty, you didnt watch him last year. The guy did things on several carries that those other two are simply incapable of doing. He's a creator, something we haven't had at RB in a long time. 

Case in point, his TD against the Bucs was a 1-2 yard run, if that, for Williams or Monty, period.

[packfanfb]

3 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

No.  I really like McCarthy and think he's a top 3 head coach in this league, it's just I think this is one of his weaknesses. 

No argument on your latter point.

[Gopackgonerd]

14 hours ago, SSG said:

It might have been a slight exaggeration but I'm not so sure.  When Williams was starting he was more of a plodder that offered next to nothing in regards to big plays.  He had just 6 carries on the season where he managed double digits in yards.  In comparison, Rip had five 10+ yard carries on 34 carries in 2016.  Williams was much more likely to get stopped behind the line of scrimmage or for no gain than he was to get a big chunk run.   I don't view around 20 carries for fewer than 70 yards rushing as a quality outing for a RB.  

Before Monty went down with injury he wasn't even managing 3 yards per carry.  He was pretty terrible when it came to running the ball.  I  agree, he's certainly more of a 3rd down back given his terrible inconsistancies as a runner.  Switching him to RB has been a rather large failure IMO.  

I think if Williams can turn into a Eddie Lacy type (minus the weight issues ofc) he will be solid for us. That play against Chicago where he just trucked 3 or 4 guys for the first down is something to look forward to more on short yardage.

I also think a lot of the running backs problems last year was injuries to the OL + defenses wernt afraid to put 8 men in the box against Hundley.

Monty as a running back wasn't a failure in 2016, but they need to use him in limited roles for him to succeed. Out of the backfield as a reciever suits him best right now. I wish McCarthy would do  two back shotgun plays with Cobb and Monty in the backfield, maybe with the the clean slate we will see some of it.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Gopackgonerd

[Packerraymond]

16 hours ago, HorizontoZenith said:

No.  I really like McCarthy and think he's a top 3 head coach in this league, it's just I think this is one of his weaknesses. 

The only example you can give outside of Jones is Jeff Janis. 11 years of coaching and 1 player. Doesn't really scream weakness to me.

Jones will play a lot this year, your stance on him is just super over dramatic.

[MacReady]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

The only example you can give outside of Jones is Jeff Janis. 11 years of coaching and 1 player. Doesn't really scream weakness to me.

2007.  Brandon Jackson started the first three games in spite of DeShawn Wynn rushing for 50 yards on 5 carries in his second game.
Jackson gets hurt.  Wynn starts the next 4 games, gets put on IR. 
Ryan Grant gets his first start in week 9, taking two running backs to get hurt. 

Ruvell Martin has 21, then 16 receptions for 17 yards and 15 yards per catch with 5 touchdowns in his first 2 seasons with Favre.  Rodgers takes over and then nothing. 

2008.  DeShawn Wynn has 1 catch and one rush until the final game of the season.  Final game of the season, he has 7 rushes for 106 yards and a TD. 
2009.  Wynn gets 6 total carries and then nothing the rest of his career. 

Finley's rookie year.  Gets the start in week 1, 11.2 yards on 5 catches.  Doesn't even start his second game and has 6 catches for 60+ yards and a TD.  Starts his third game and gets 0 catches.  Averages 5.3, 25 and 14 yards per catch over the next three games, then is a healthy scratch for the next two games, then, in spite of not being placed on IR, he doesn't make another appearance the rest of the season.  His second year, he has 5 catches for 62 yards in two games.  Not even a target in his third game, doesn't start his fourth game, still gets 6 catches for 128 yards and a TD.  After a 6 catch, 128 yard and 1 TD season, he has 6 total catches over the next five games.  When he's actually put back in, what happens?  He leads the team in targets after he has a 7 catch game.  Then he literally has a record-setting playoff performance with 159 yards. 

James Starks.  Rookie year, he isn't even ACTIVE until week 11.  In week 13, he has 18 carries for 4.1 yards per carry.  He gets 6 total carries in week 14, goes two games without playing a single play, and then gets only 5 carries in a MUST WIN GAME TO GET TO THE PLAYOFFS.  Brandon Jackson had 19 carries for 2.7 yards in that game.  Starks averaged 4 yards per carry in that game.  Jackson got 19 carries, Starks got 4.  Starks doesn't start the first three weeks of 2011, but he still manages to rush for 4.8 yards and 9.4 yards per carry in the first two games.  Gets a start in week 4, rushes for 4.8 yards per carry.  Oh, Grant is healthy again.  He gets the next SIX STARTS even though he averages 2.6, 2.8, 3.2, 4.0, .8, 4.0 yards per carry.  Starks gets another start, rushes for 4.8 yards per carry. 

Jeremy Ross gets 6 punt returns for 12.5 yards per return.  3 kickoff returns for 28.7 yards per return.  We don't even retain him or give him more opportunities.  Ross goes on to finish 18th ALL TIME in punt return average.  90th ALL TIME in kick return average. 

Jarrett Boykin has 49 receptions for an average of 13.9 yards per reception with Flynn/Tolzien throwing to him the majority of the season.  Three total catches the next season.  This is the one that first caught my attention to it.  If a player shows that he can perform over a full season, why in the hell aren't they given more opportunities?

That's just up to 2014, and only offense.  I'd have more players if I went up to the current year and if I included defensive players.  Why are Goodson/Hawkins constantly getting on the field with injuries instead of talented/raw players?  The only reason Shields EVER got on the field is because the Packers were afraid of the speed of the Eagles receivers. 

It is my opinion that McCarthy is stubborn and would rather have players do things the way they're designed to be done than create their own plays.  Aaron Jones, as others have said, creates his own yardage.  Jamaal Williams and Ty Montgomery do a great job at running exactly where the play is designed to go even if the play runs directly into the teeth of a linebacker. 

This list is just of players that I can remember having good plays while going through our rosters over the years.  I'm sure there are more, and I'm absolutely positive there are defensive players who played better than the players who actually started.  Gilbert is one who comes to mind over Fackrell.  Fackrell does a fantastic job of doing exactly what he's supposed to in theory even if he can't disengage from a block or avoid getting manhandled to save his life. 

A lot of people like to attribute that to draft status, but I don't think it's that.  I think McCarthy prefers players doing exactly what they're supposed to do instead of creating things for themselves.  There are a LOT of connections that could be made to this theory.  Our interceptions COMPLETELY drying up since Charles Woodson left is just another connection. 

Is it common for running backs (Starks, Wynn, Jones, and probably a bunch others) to have huge plays only to ride the bench and not get any opportunities?  It's happened a lot in Green Bay.

As far as the receivers, I'd put equal blame on Rodgers because Rodgers is just as stubborn.  When it comes to RB though... Think there's more to it than you're willing to give me credit for. 

 

[AlexGreen#20]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

The only example you can give outside of Jones is Jeff Janis. 11 years of coaching and 1 player. Doesn't really scream weakness to me.

Jones will play a lot this year, your stance on him is just super over dramatic.

James Starks and Brandon Jackson

Fita the narrative just off the top of my head.

Could probably come up with a few more if I really thought about it.

Not even saying I agree that this is a McCarthy weakness, all coaches struggle making the call on pulling the trigger to replace the incumbent

I just disagree that Janis is the only example.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

10 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

2007.  Brandon Jackson started the first three games in spite of DeShawn Wynn rushing for 50 yards on 5 carries in his second game.
Jackson gets hurt.  Wynn starts the next 4 games, gets put on IR. 
Ryan Grant gets his first start in week 9, taking two running backs to get hurt. 

Ruvell Martin has 21, then 16 receptions for 17 yards and 15 yards per catch with 5 touchdowns in his first 2 seasons with Favre.  Rodgers takes over and then nothing. 

2008.  DeShawn Wynn has 1 catch and one rush until the final game of the season.  Final game of the season, he has 7 rushes for 106 yards and a TD. 
2009.  Wynn gets 6 total carries and then nothing the rest of his career. 

Finley's rookie year.  Gets the start in week 1, 11.2 yards on 5 catches.  Doesn't even start his second game and has 6 catches for 60+ yards and a TD.  Starts his third game and gets 0 catches.  Averages 5.3, 25 and 14 yards per catch over the next three games, then is a healthy scratch for the next two games, then, in spite of not being placed on IR, he doesn't make another appearance the rest of the season.  His second year, he has 5 catches for 62 yards in two games.  Not even a target in his third game, doesn't start his fourth game, still gets 6 catches for 128 yards and a TD.  After a 6 catch, 128 yard and 1 TD season, he has 6 total catches over the next five games.  When he's actually put back in, what happens?  He leads the team in targets after he has a 7 catch game.  Then he literally has a record-setting playoff performance with 159 yards. 

James Starks.  Rookie year, he isn't even ACTIVE until week 11.  In week 13, he has 18 carries for 4.1 yards per carry.  He gets 6 total carries in week 14, goes two games without playing a single play, and then gets only 5 carries in a MUST WIN GAME TO GET TO THE PLAYOFFS.  Brandon Jackson had 19 carries for 2.7 yards in that game.  Starks averaged 4 yards per carry in that game.  Jackson got 19 carries, Starks got 4.  Starks doesn't start the first three weeks of 2011, but he still manages to rush for 4.8 yards and 9.4 yards per carry in the first two games.  Gets a start in week 4, rushes for 4.8 yards per carry.  Oh, Grant is healthy again.  He gets the next SIX STARTS even though he averages 2.6, 2.8, 3.2, 4.0, .8, 4.0 yards per carry.  Starks gets another start, rushes for 4.8 yards per carry. 

Jeremy Ross gets 6 punt returns for 12.5 yards per return.  3 kickoff returns for 28.7 yards per return.  We don't even retain him or give him more opportunities.  Ross goes on to finish 18th ALL TIME in punt return average.  90th ALL TIME in kick return average. 

Jarrett Boykin has 49 receptions for an average of 13.9 yards per reception with Flynn/Tolzien throwing to him the majority of the season.  Three total catches the next season.  This is the one that first caught my attention to it.  If a player shows that he can perform over a full season, why in the hell aren't they given more opportunities?

That's just up to 2014, and only offense.  I'd have more players if I went up to the current year and if I included defensive players.  Why are Goodson/Hawkins constantly getting on the field with injuries instead of talented/raw players?  The only reason Shields EVER got on the field is because the Packers were afraid of the speed of the Eagles receivers. 

It is my opinion that McCarthy is stubborn and would rather have players do things the way they're designed to be done than create their own plays.  Aaron Jones, as others have said, creates his own yardage.  Jamaal Williams and Ty Montgomery do a great job at running exactly where the play is designed to go even if the play runs directly into the teeth of a linebacker. 

This list is just of players that I can remember having good plays while going through our rosters over the years.  I'm sure there are more, and I'm absolutely positive there are defensive players who played better than the players who actually started.  Gilbert is one who comes to mind over Fackrell.  Fackrell does a fantastic job of doing exactly what he's supposed to in theory even if he can't disengage from a block or avoid getting manhandled to save his life. 

A lot of people like to attribute that to draft status, but I don't think it's that.  I think McCarthy prefers players doing exactly what they're supposed to do instead of creating things for themselves.  There are a LOT of connections that could be made to this theory.  Our interceptions COMPLETELY drying up since Charles Woodson left is just another connection. 

Is it common for running backs (Starks, Wynn, Jones, and probably a bunch others) to have huge plays only to ride the bench and not get any opportunities?  It's happened a lot in Green Bay.

As far as the receivers, I'd put equal blame on Rodgers because Rodgers is just as stubborn.  When it comes to RB though... Think there's more to it than you're willing to give me credit for. 

 

In my opinion, it is not so much an issue that he doesn't like players making something for themselves, it is more McCarthy is intolerant of mistakes.  Rodgers is as well.  Finley, for example, as a rookie was the guy who messed up toward the end of the game and gave the line about Rodgers putting the ball in the wrong spot because he wasn't that type of player.  

Every player can flash, MM wants them to play with consistency.

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Ragnar Danneskjold

[CWood21]

18 hours ago, packfanfb said:

I mean if you're not in the camp that Jones is hands down the better RB vs Williams and Monty, you didnt watch him last year. The guy did things on several carries that those other two are simply incapable of doing. He's a creator, something we haven't had at RB in a long time. 

Case in point, his TD against the Bucs was a 1-2 yard run, if that, for Williams or Monty, period.

Just because he's capable of doing things that the other RBs aren't capable of, doesn't mean he's hands down the better RB.

[Cakeshoppe]

39 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

Jarrett Boykin has 49 receptions for an average of 13.9 yards per reception with Flynn/Tolzien throwing to him the majority of the season.  Three total catches the next season.  This is the one that first caught my attention to it.  If a player shows that he can perform over a full season, why in the hell aren't they given more opportunities?

Boykin played on the majority of snaps the first three weeks of 2014 and sucked big league. He got 7 targets and 2 receptions for 17 yards on 119 snaps the first 3 weeks. Got injured after that and by the time he returned, Adams had shown far better production. Boykin just couldn't get open in 2014.

[MacReady]

Just now, Cakeshoppe said:

Boykin played on the majority of snaps the first three weeks of 2014 and sucked big league. He got 7 targets and 2 receptions for 17 yards on 119 snaps the first 3 weeks. Got injured after that and by the time he returned, Adams had shown far better production. Boykin just couldn't get open in 2014.

Think there was more to it than that.  Distinctly remember somebody more qualified than either of us hinting at why Boykin wasn't getting targeted, and that he couldn't handle the fact that he needed to be more technically sound to get more targets. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

18 minutes ago, Cakeshoppe said:

Boykin played on the majority of snaps the first three weeks of 2014 and sucked big league. He got 7 targets and 2 receptions for 17 yards on 119 snaps the first 3 weeks. Got injured after that and by the time he returned, Adams had shown far better production. Boykin just couldn't get open in 2014.

Boykin also had a bad case of the drops.  JS Online had him for dropping 25% of his limited targets.  It has always seemed to me that if a young receiver starts dropping passes, Rodgers quits throwing to them.