Random Packer News & Notes

[Packerraymond]

Just now, Leader said:

Perhaps my post was a bit impolite....but outside that, it was right on.

Right on what? That he offended you? You didn't counter with a single point about football. There was no debate or anything for you to be right about. Sorry, just calling it as I see it.

[Leader]

1 minute ago, Packerraymond said:

Right on what? That he offended you? You didn't counter with a single point about football. There was no debate or anything for you to be right about. Sorry, just calling it as I see it.

Actually, I wasnt offended. Not in the slightest. I can use swear words conversationally. Shouldn't be mistaken for anger or upset.

Second - I wasnt going to *debate* TT's take on Herman's take. I'd already offered my "no comment" in my initial post - but thats an entirely subjective matter and for Herman defend. Since he's not around far as I can tell - not happening.

And - I did counter his comments regards my scouting department thoughts.

Now - "Mr. Move On" - you feel like doing that or would you like to continue this banter?

[skibrett15]

16 minutes ago, Leader said:

I could care less about people disagreeing with someone elses opinion. Dont think they need to be called *** simply for expressing it however - but perhaps thats just me - and - my take on the GB scouting department was also taken to task. Not sure what was so objectionable about that.....so I expressed my opinion about it.

bot

[Leader]

Just now, skibrett15 said:

bot

You are. We know.

[Packerraymond]

15 minutes ago, Leader said:

Actually, I wasnt offended. Not in the slightest. I can use swear words conversationally. Shouldn't be mistaken for anger or upset.

Second - I wasnt going to *debate* TT's take on Herman's take. I'd already offered my "no comment" in my initial post - but thats an entirely subjective matter and for Herman defend. Since he's not around far as I can tell - not happening.

And - I did counter his comments regards my scouting department thoughts.

Now - "Mr. Move On" - you feel like doing that or would you like to continue this banter?

I'm happy to move on.

Post better, think before you hit submit. We don't need or want posts like that here.

[MacReady]

On 3/27/2021 at 7:59 PM, Leader said:

What did Darren Sharper ever do to be considered an all time favorite?  I mean....a decent player and all...but.

He made me a fan of football.

I had never really watched a full game of football before.  Watched bits and pieces before because my dad was a fan and my whole family, too, but I never could follow the game because it was kinda boring to me.  I’d basically just watch replays when I heard my dad scream happy screams.

Paid attention to how the Packers were doing for a couple years because I remembered the general gloom after the 97 Super Bowl loss and didn’t want that to happen again.

Then, it was sometime around 200-2001, against the Dolphins, Sharper had either a pick six or a fumble recovery for a touchdown (don’t remember which), and it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen.

I didn’t know before then that defensive players could score points and the beauty of scoring points when the goal was to prevent points just from me hooked on football.

It’s why my all-time favorite plays and the plays I will never forget are always and will always be takeaways and defensive points.

Nick’s Super Bowl pick six, Clay’s Super Bowl forced fumble, Jaire’s strip of that rookie TE in Denver.  Clay taking the ball from Peterson and scoring a TD.

Darren Sharper was absolutely a Hall of Fame player.  He’d be there within five years from now if not for him being a terrible human.  Over 60 career interceptions.  About 9 touchdowns.  He’s in the HOF if not for the person side.

[Leader]

2 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

He made me a fan of football.

I had never really watched a full game of football before.  Watched bits and pieces before because my dad was a fan and my whole family, too, but I never could follow the game because it was kinda boring to me.  I’d basically just watch replays when I heard my dad scream happy screams.

Paid attention to how the Packers were doing for a couple years because I remembered the general gloom after the 97 Super Bowl loss and didn’t want that to happen again.

Then, it was sometime around 200-2001, against the Dolphins, Sharper had either a pick six or a fumble recovery for a touchdown (don’t remember which), and it was the most beautiful thing I had ever seen.

I didn’t know before then that defensive players could score points and the beauty of scoring points when the goal was to prevent points just from me hooked on football.

It’s why my all-time favorite plays and the plays I will never forget are always and will always be takeaways and defensive points.

Nick’s Super Bowl pick six, Clay’s Super Bowl forced fumble, Jaire’s strip of that rookie TE in Denver.  Clay taking the ball from Peterson and scoring a TD.

Darren Sharper was absolutely a Hall of Fame player.  He’d be there within five years from now if not for him being a terrible human.  Over 60 career interceptions.  About 9 touchdowns.  He’s in the HOF if not for the person side.

Okay. We remember the player differently.

[MacReady]

Just now, Leader said:

Okay. We remember the player differently.

No we don’t.  He sold out for interceptions.  I’m judging his HOF candidacy based on what the HOF is, not what it should be.  You have 60 career interceptions and 10 career TDs as a defender and you’re getting in.

[packfanfb]

7 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

No we don’t.  He sold out for interceptions.  I’m judging his HOF candidacy based on what the HOF is, not what it should be.  You have 60 career interceptions and 10 career TDs as a defender and you’re getting in.

I just wish he hadn't been late reacting over the middle in the playoffs in 1998 and 2003...

[vegas492]

@Outpost31

I'm a little older than you, but I got really interested in defensive football when watching the 85 Bears.  It was a different kind of defense.

Then came the Packers with #92.  He was amazing to watch.  But, with him we also had a prime LeRoy Butler.  That dude was a game wrecker.  In his prime he could cover ground better than Sharper, and I dare say, better than Collins as a safety.  Butler had extreme knowledge of the game that could take him to spots on the field without really diagnosing a play.

I can't recall the exact game that made me a Butler fan.  But he was free safety.  It could have been a Tampa game.  He was playing centerfield and his left corner was beaten deep for a TD.  Butler covered about 50 yards of turf in the time it took the QB to load for the pass and release it.  He got there, highpointed the ball and secured an INT.

To this day, I know that Rod Woodson could have made that play as a safety.  Outside of him, I don't think there is another safety I've seen play that would have made that play.

Butler was amazing.  Bears 85 D got me interested.  Signing Reggie White made me a fan.  Watching #36 made me a believer!

[MacReady]

5 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

@Outpost31

I'm a little older than you, but I got really interested in defensive football when watching the 85 Bears.  It was a different kind of defense.

Then came the Packers with #92.  He was amazing to watch.  But, with him we also had a prime LeRoy Butler.  That dude was a game wrecker.  In his prime he could cover ground better than Sharper, and I dare say, better than Collins as a safety.  Butler had extreme knowledge of the game that could take him to spots on the field without really diagnosing a play.

I can't recall the exact game that made me a Butler fan.  But he was free safety.  It could have been a Tampa game.  He was playing centerfield and his left corner was beaten deep for a TD.  Butler covered about 50 yards of turf in the time it took the QB to load for the pass and release it.  He got there, highpointed the ball and secured an INT.

To this day, I know that Rod Woodson could have made that play as a safety.  Outside of him, I don't think there is another safety I've seen play that would have made that play.

Butler was amazing.  Bears 85 D got me interested.  Signing Reggie White made me a fan.  Watching #36 made me a believer!

Yeah, I really wish I had been a fan during Butler’s days.  I randomly met him signing autographs at a Scheel’s Sports the last time I went to Lambeau.  Seems like a great guy, too.

[craig]

2 hours ago, Spartacus said:

I find the whole "This team is a draft and develop team" stupid. Every team is a draft and develop team now..... You don't turn into a super team without at least a couple outstanding to good drafts.

I think what Leader noted is correct, and what you're noting is correct as well.  

We do need to be sharp with our talent evaluations and our developmental effectiveness.  At least, if we want to be #1, which is the goal.  And that talent eval goes both for the draft picks and for the occasional FA addition.  If our productivity in D+D is not bad but mostly just average per draft position, while drafting late in each round, we're not going to end up being the best team in the league.  Drafting late, we're going to lose ground relative to the competition, UNLESS we are sharper than the competition.  Likewise if our usage of non-QB dollars is just average, it's going to be challenging to separate from the league and be #1.   

Sparty is also correct.  Everybody has the same salary cap; and ~ one pick per round.  So nobody is going to separate from the league and come out #1 **unless** they are sharp with their evaluations, both in draft and in spending on non-rookie contracts, whether those be re-signs or external FA's.   It's the same cap, so every team that aspires to be #1 needs to be able to both effectively fill spots with low-cap rookie-contract personnel; AND use their non-rookie-contract dollars effectively.  The Packers aren't unique in that way. 

 

[craig]

19 hours ago, Leader said:

Andy Herman -  The Packers made 25 selections from 2015-2017 & basically hit on Kenny Clark & Aaron Jones. That's it.

Remaining players on the team: Kenny Clark, Dean Lowry, Kevin King, Aaron Jones

Top 100 misses: Randall, Rollins, Montgomery, Spriggs, Fackrell, J. Jones, K. King, M. Adams///

I d0 think think that the Herman post was overly negative, or a little simplistic.  As mentioned, Martinez earned a big contract and was too good to resign.  King being a variably-close-to-average CB isn't exactly a fail, Lowry, Williams, Fackrell, etc..  Big difference between "fail" on the Rollins/Spriggs/JJones level versus the King/Williams/Lowry outcomes.

But there is a degree in which if you want to be the best team in the league, you do need to really HIT on some **asset** picks.  You need guys who are above-average guys who are going to help you separate from the league. Rodgers, Adams, Bakhti, Jaire, guys like that help you separate from the league.  Lowry/King type guys don't.  So perhaps Herman is on point that Clark and Jones are the only real well-above-average asset guys  from those drafts.  

But of course there is a huge range on the awful-to-awesome continuum.  King and Lowry usable and well up the anti-awful continuum relative to Spriggs, Rollins, and JJones.  

[cannondale]

All you have to do is look at Hermans post with some context. I put together a similar list here somewhere. It simply shows the lack of difference makers. Was Martinez a good pick ? That's up for debate. Nobody here was crying when he left. That says something. You have to draft guys that move the needle. Can you win a Super Bowl with a defense made up of 11 Martinez's ?? No. Can you win a Super Bowl with a couple Martinez guys ?? Sure, but the list shows there aren't enough needle movers

Edited March 29, 2021 by cannondale

[MrBobGray]

I hate talking about draft hits and misses, because it's always about the outcome and never about the opportunities leading up to it.  Most players are not completely scheme independent superstars who would be equally great for any team. A player being a stud on team A doesn't mean that same player would be the same stud for every team in the league.  When Metcalf got drafted by the Seahawks I immediately settled in for years of "lolol oH NoeZ bUt hIS 3-CoNe lolololol" nonsense because there wasn't a better situation in the NFL for him and it was clear he was likely to produce in a big way.  It doesn't mean the concerns about him weren't legitimate or that he would produce similarly for every team, it means Russell Wilson is maybe the best deep ball thrower in the league and his best fit is a run based offense that lets him take off on PA all the damn time.

King wasn't drafted to play in Pettine's system, he was drafted to play in Capers, the same way AJ Hawk wasn't drafted to play in Capers's system, he was drafted to play in Sanders's system.  Are they misses because they don't fit with what a guy wants who wasn't even there when they were drafted?  Again, I can't stress it enough, scheme independent guys are a rarity, and you're not stocking your team with them period.  It's a non-starter in the time of Free Agency, because once those guys hit the market every team in the league is bidding.  So you draft guys who work with what you're doing today, and hope what you're doing tomorrow is the same thing.  Sometimes that's not true, and your drafts are going to suffer accordingly in hindsight.  It's not a coincidence the three years Herman looked at happened to be the three years before a full staff change.