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Is the Qb situation good enough?


thebestever6

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1 hour ago, broncofan48 said:

You've compared him to Andy Dalton multiple times thats closer to scrub than borderline top 10.  And the trade up for RG3 most definitely  set the Skins back as far as getting a competent roster.  Now as far as paying Cousins a bunch, I'm on the fence about it.  He did say money isn't the end all be all, but could be just saying to the FO he will sign the tag if they apply it and play for $34Mil.

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/01/30/kirk-cousins-wants-to-win-and-find-the-right-team-he-can-help-win/

 

 

I stand by my andy Dalton claims. Now we can debate where Stafford, Dalton, Cousins measure up in the grand scheme of things but it genuinely does not matter. Cousins fits with a team like Jacksonville or Minnesota.  Two teams who are stacked with young cheap talent and are ready to contend. 

Let me explain it another way. Cousins is a  Bruce Wayne not bad company. He's in the room with Drew Brees . He's no Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson. He's not gonna make a meddling team a championship team he just isn't. 

This roster isn't even to the level of requiring a franchise saving qb. That will require two drafts with top 15 selections and two free agency periods. The first will be finding bargain bin young guys who can out produce their contract.  Examples are Shelby harris and Darian Stewart. The second free agency period will require a longer Aquib talib, tj ward view.  Scattered with a role guy or two like a Demarcus Ware.

The only franchise cornerstone in the building is von miller and he has 3 peak years left. We have a depleted roster and we don't even know if a coach is the long term issues. There are too many ?s right now surrounding the franchise right now to make a bold move.

 

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12 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

I stand by my andy Dalton claims. Now we can debate where Stafford, Dalton, Cousins measure up in the grand scheme of things but it genuinely does not matter. Cousins fits with a team like Jacksonville or Minnesota.  Two teams who are stacked with young cheap talent and are ready to contend. 

Let me explain it another way. Cousins is a  Bruce Wayne not bad company. He's in the room with Drew Brees . He's no Aaron Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Russell Wilson. He's not gonna make a meddling team a championship team he just isn't. 

This roster isn't even to the level of requiring a franchise saving qb. That will require two drafts with top 15 selections and two free agency periods. The first will be finding bargain bin young guys who can out produce their contract.  Examples are Shelby harris and Darian Stewart. The second free agency period will require a longer Aquib talib, tj ward view.  Scattered with a role guy or two like a Demarcus Ware.

The only franchise cornerstone in the building is von miller and he has 3 peak years left. We have a depleted roster and we don't even know if a coach is the long term issues. There are too many ?s right now surrounding the franchise right now to make a bold move.

 

So by your logic, why not nuke everything, package Von for picks, go Qb at 5, and spend the next 2-3 years adding a ton of high end talent as the rookie QB learns

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3 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

So by your logic, why not nuke everything, package Von for picks, go Qb at 5, and spend the next 2-3 years adding a ton of high end talent as the rookie QB learns

I mean if we could get an A+ package for Von yes absolutely i don't see it though. I think the most valuable pieces on d is interior pass rushers ala Fletcher Cox and Aaron Donald. If we could get two first and a second I'd be the first one to say yes. Listen Von just isn't as disruptive without a sidekick like Elvis Dumerville or Demarcus Ware. 

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20 minutes ago, broncofan48 said:

So by your logic, why not nuke everything, package Von for picks, go Qb at 5, and spend the next 2-3 years adding a ton of high end talent as the rookie QB learns

Fanbases get sentimental that 2015 championship team was special. We lost a key cog in Peyton and a lot of other stars are burning out.  Trust me being a Phillies fan I know. They traded a ton for pence because their window was closing ours is closed for now. 

That Von Miller deal has crippled this franchise 2013 was just a bad draft.  But, when von was on a rookie deal we won it all. Since that contract denver has done everything in their power to get a good qb on a cheap deal. 2 guys making 50 mill per year isn't an equation for success.

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Von's deal didn't cripple the franchise, that's a Fox Sports-caliber hot take. The other three deals that year (Marshall, Sanders, Stewart) + terrible drafts crippled the franchise. Two average players and an aging #2 WR with no QB. Hindsight 20/20 because we all overestimated the value of Marshall and Stewart. Paying non-blue chip players kills teams, but you pay your best players what they're worth. 

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Think Cousins is what the Broncos need.  I think they compete for a playoff spot with him.  I think the development of the OL is getting better.  Our backfield is better than average.  The receiving corp. including TEs could be better.  I think if Elways spends the capital on Cousins, he has to pay for some tools for him...a top tier WR and TE would have to be in the mix. 

The other move I like with Cousins is that if the Broncos trade Talib, Kirkpatrick will be right there at five for the taking.  And, it seems like the draft has some really good offensive linemen and running backs.  

This is a wise move to get Cousins.  

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11 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Von's deal didn't cripple the franchise. The other three deals that year (Marshall, Sanders, Stewart) crippled the franchise. Two average players and an aging #2 WR with no QB. Hindsight 20/20 because we all overestimated the value of Marshall and Stewart. 

That's fair very fair. No one can argue stewart, marshall, sanders are overpaid. The problem is they are all over paid and Shane Ray has failed in replacing ware to compliment Von. Shane Ray who was a bpa fell for other reason top 10 talent.

It all adds up to trading von. He has all the value he has lived up to that contract. He has lived up to that Derrick Thomas pass rushing legend. If we can get a hershel walker type deal it can help get us out of this mess if we draft better. What can we net for Stewart , Marshall, and Sanders?

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22 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Von's deal didn't cripple the franchise, that's a Fox Sports-caliber hot take. The other three deals that year (Marshall, Sanders, Stewart) + terrible drafts crippled the franchise. Two average players and an aging #2 WR with no QB. Hindsight 20/20 because we all overestimated the value of Marshall and Stewart. Paying non-blue chip players kills teams, but you pay your best players what they're worth. 

Which is why I do not want Cousins. He's not good enough to offset the amount of money he would command plus the players we'd have to cut to pick him up. Will losing Aqib Talib, CJ Anderson, Emmanuel Sanders, and adding Cousins make us that much better of a team?

We need to stop going for these quick fix moves and build for the future, which includes drafting a QB high.

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11 minutes ago, BroncoBruin said:

Von's deal didn't cripple the franchise, that's a Fox Sports-caliber hot take. The other three deals that year (Marshall, Sanders, Stewart) + terrible drafts crippled the franchise. Two average players and an aging #2 WR with no QB. Hindsight 20/20 because we all overestimated the value of Marshall and Stewart. Paying non-blue chip players kills teams, but you pay your best players what they're worth. 

I think you're right about that. The problem though is "what are they worth?"

I think that's where we mess up BB. We let Von hit FA rather than go after an extension in his 3rd or 4th year. After one of the best defensive performances ever in the SB he hit FA and we paid a premium. We did about the same with DT.

Here's where I think Belichick shines. If he can't sign a player he wants to a team friendly extension he trades them for draft picks in their last year. He never gets caught in a FA bidding war or "Tags".

Anyway bud, I really think that's our biggest issue. We get caught every time. We're doing the same right now with Roby. If he has a really good 5th year we'll pay a premium. I'm not so sure Elways philosophy of "letting the market decide" a players value is a good approach.

I really think the Pats "franchise model" is the way to go. It's worked great for almost two decades. They always seem to end up on the right side of FA. Never a "top heavy" salary situation

Oh well, once again I've delved into a conversation that could take hours in a bar. pretty much translates into weeks on a keyboard. Oops!:x

 

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1 minute ago, AKRNA said:

I think you're right about that. The problem though is "what are they worth?"

I think that's where we mess up BB. We let Von hit FA rather than go after an extension in his 3rd or 4th year. After one of the best defensive performances ever in the SB he hit FA and we paid a premium. We did about the same with DT.

Here's where I think Belichick shines. If he can't sign a player he wants to a team friendly extension he trades them for draft picks in their last year. He never gets caught in a FA bidding war or "Tags".

Anyway bud, I really think that's our biggest issue. We get caught every time. We're doing the same right now with Roby. If he has a really good 5th year we'll pay a premium. I'm not so sure Elways philosophy of "letting the market decide" a players value is a good approach.

I really think the Pats "franchise model" is the way to go. It's worked great for almost two decades. They always seem to end up on the right side of FA. Never a "top heavy" salary situation

Oh well, once again I've delved into a conversation that could take hours in a bar. pretty much translates into weeks on a keyboard. Oops!:x

 

The Pats also have one of the best QBs of all time, paired with one of the best coaches of all time.  They can take more chances letting players go and replacing them with rookies. 

When the Broncos get a good QB and a better coach...then, they can do such things.

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32 minutes ago, jsthomp2007 said:

Think Cousins is what the Broncos need.  I think they compete for a playoff spot with him.  I think the development of the OL is getting better.  Our backfield is better than average.  The receiving corp. including TEs could be better.  I think if Elways spends the capital on Cousins, he has to pay for some tools for him...a top tier WR and TE would have to be in the mix. 

The other move I like with Cousins is that if the Broncos trade Talib, Kirkpatrick will be right there at five for the taking.  And, it seems like the draft has some really good offensive linemen and running backs.  

This is a wise move to get Cousins.  

Great analysis! I'm still on the fence though jst. I'm curious about his leadership skills. More than anything on this team, that seems to be the most lacking.

 

So, how good are the best DB's in the draft? Is there a CB out there?

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If we let Von go after that Super Bowl we lose the locker room and become a non destination for Free Agents.  And saying that’s how the Pats do it great doesn’t seem to work anywhere else.  Got tried here and failed miserably.  

 

The Pats are the exception not the rule. 

 

You gotta pay your big time players when they deserve it.  This isn’t madden where you can just trade guys and not worry about cohesion or dissension among the ranks

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You guys are absolutely viewing this the wrong way. Von is the definition of a franchise player. He was drafted, developed, and led the team to a SB victory. He was and is the face of the franchise. You have to keep those guys for so many reasons. You know why Bill Belichick never pays those guys? Because outside of Brady/Gronk- he never HAD those guys, especially defensively.

It's also time to stop talking about the Patriots in this way. They have the best QB ever to play purposely taking a lesser salary. The stars have aligned for them. They have the best coach of all time. When we have those things, the comparisons will be valid.

We paid a premium for Von, because he commanded a premium. We did not pay a premium for Thomas. We paid exactly what he was worth, because he was an elite WR, and then the QB play fell off a cliff. There are some contractual things that I think we could do better, but there's a reason Denver is and has been a FA destination, and it's because the organization treats its players the right way and doesn't just cut bait. The problem is signing guys like Sanders, Marshall, et al. to large contracts for play that is average. You get burned doing that, you don't get burned paying your stars. You also get burned when you can't draft worth a damn and have to resort to FA as the way forward. That's where Denver is at now.

The idea of trading Von Miller is just baffling to me. Broncos fans have gotten so wildly reactive. This isn't Madden. Teams can be rebuilt with smart drafting and personnel decisions. For 3 years Elway punted those responsibilities and instead zeroed in on individual players at certain positions. Telegraphing picks is only smart when it works, but not accumulating talent across the board bites you every time.

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1 hour ago, broncofan48 said:

If we let Von go after that Super Bowl we lose the locker room and become a non destination for Free Agents.  And saying that’s how the Pats do it great doesn’t seem to work anywhere else.  Got tried here and failed miserably.  

 

The Pats are the exception not the rule. 

 

You gotta pay your big time players when they deserve it.  This isn’t madden where you can just trade guys and not worry about cohesion or dissension among the ranks

I don't really disagree. I just think paying them before FA makes more sense. If they won't take the deal, trade them.

 

It's just a timing thing.

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