Broncofan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 42 minutes ago, thebestever6 said: Thats for trades to be completed. There's discussions of a trade as soon as the combine happense maybe sooner. I expect preliminary discussions to happen asap even if its on the down low. Even if it's tampering tampering happens all the time. The deadline for the tag happens before a trade can be made yes, but I believe that is all semantics. Washington is not just gonna lose their best qb they've ever had for nothing. The problem is that NFL teams can't trade a player not signed under contract. Tagging Cousins doesn't make him tradeable; he has to sign the tender to be tradeable (and the deadline to sign that is July 16). And that's before we incorporate the fact that Jay Gruden has already said that WAS should not do a 1-year deal. The NFL has already said anyone caught tampering is losing picks - so why would any team risk this when WAS can't actually trade Cousins unless he signs a deal that the coach has said his team shouldn't pursue? It's crazy, but WAS' own actions have basically made their position untenable. To recap - the WAS coach said no to a 1-year tender. WAS can't trade Cousins unless he signs a tender. Yet you are suggesting that WAS would then knowingly tamper with other teams when they can't actually trade the player until he signs a tender that the coach himself has said the team shouldn't pursue. Anyone else see the logic fallacy here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoundrel Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 If we give up capital for cousins I'll be heated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnAngryAmerican Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 So @Broncofan whats the end game? Do we have a shot at Cousins or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 14 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said: So @Broncofan whats the end game? Do we have a shot at Cousins or not? When it seemed like WAS could hold out for a trade by applying the tag and then engineer a trade - outgunned by a mile. Hell, I said as much for weeks. But with the corrected info that a tagged player can't be traded until they sign and are under contract - well, there's a clear shot. Keep in mind that @BroncosFan2010 's point about having to clear extra salary to make it work would likely be needed (Talib's 11M a clear target to make it work), and how much that hamstrings our ability to fix the rest of our roster issues (which at 5-11, let's face it, a 3-4W QB only gets us to 8-8 / 9-7, we need more help). And of course, whether Cousins would consider us as a top destination. TBH, if I was Cousins, I see about 3-4 other spots that are more desirable. But at least the draft capital angle of being outgunned wouldn't be there. Then its up to Elway to do a sell job as good as when he convinced Peyton to come over. Personally, I don't question the talent Cousins has - our cap situation and ability to fix glaring holes, man, that's another story. Now, WAS could pull a 180 and apply the franchise tag - at 2 1sts, no one would pay that - but WAS would be paying 34M for that right. The crazy part is that Jay Gruden's comments yesterday basically dismiss that as an option - it's exactly the opposite of what a team would normally do to create any type of market (create the threat they will sign him to the franchise tag if an extension can't be worked out, and thus encourage teams to look elsewhere - by stating they shouldn't commit to 1-year, they are basically encouraging teams to simply wait WAS out, if they aren't going with the tag). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Broncofan said: When it seemed like WAS could hold out for a trade by applying the tag and then engineer a trade - outgunned by a mile. Hell, I said as much for weeks. But with the corrected info that a tagged player can't be traded until they sign and are under contract - well, there's a clear shot. Keep in mind that @BroncosFan2010 's point about having to clear extra salary to make it work would likely be needed (Talib's 11M a clear target to make it work), and how much that hamstrings our ability to fix the rest of our roster issues (which at 5-11, let's face it, a 3-4W QB only gets us to 8-8 / 9-7, we need more help). And of course, whether Cousins would consider us as a top destination. TBH, if I was Cousins, I see about 3-4 other spots that are more desirable. But at least the draft capital angle of being outgunned wouldn't be there. Then its up to Elway to do a sell job as good as when he convinced Peyton to come over. Personally, I don't question the talent Cousins has - our cap situation and ability to fix glaring holes, man, that's another story. Now, WAS could pull a 180 and apply the franchise tag - at 2 1sts, no one would pay that - but WAS would be paying 34M for that right. The crazy part is that Jay Gruden's comments yesterday basically dismiss that as an option - it's exactly the opposite of what a team would normally do to create any type of market (create the threat they will sign him to the franchise tag if an extension can't be worked out, and thus encourage teams to look elsewhere - by stating they shouldn't commit to 1-year, they are basically encouraging teams to simply wait WAS out, if they aren't going with the tag). Exactly. As soon as I heard Gruden came out and basically said this needs to stop being a game and either make Cousins the future or move on I knew Washington had lost a lot of leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
broncofan48 Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Not sure where to put this. I was messing around on overthecap and with a Talib cut, EFRA and RFA tenders to Paradis, Barrett, and Harris, plus resigning Todd Davis the salary cap is 40 million. So unless I'm doing something wrong (good chance) I really could see Elway going after Cousins. I'm not saying its the right decision just that it's the one I see Elway making. Also, if someone else ( @Broncofan ) wants to take the time and break the cap down I would really appreciate it haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 2 hours ago, broncofan48 said: Not sure where to put this. I was messing around on overthecap and with a Talib cut, EFRA and RFA tenders to Paradis, Barrett, and Harris, plus resigning Todd Davis the salary cap is 40 million. So unless I'm doing something wrong (good chance) I really could see Elway going after Cousins. I'm not saying its the right decision just that it's the one I see Elway making. Also, if someone else ( @Broncofan ) wants to take the time and break the cap down I would really appreciate it haha http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/ Cap top 51 - 28.6M (includes rollover) We have a no brainer cut next year - RT Menelik Watson saves 4M (actually creates 4.5M extra space but you have to assume Min salary of 500k for 51st guy taking his spot). Cutting Talib saves 10.5M (11M gained but 51st guy min wage 500k). That gets us to 43M. The 2nd round tenders to Paradis and Barrett cost 4M extra for the 2 spots. That’s 39M. I think we’d cut CJ to save 4M or at least get him to take a pay cut with incentives to save 1-2M. So yeah we are close to 40M. Garcia and Siemian both get raises to almost 2M each but it’s not guaranteed. So yeah both likely go but they are listed at 750k each in the above #’s so it doesn’t save us much (but costs us 3M to keep both with their raises so easy call to cut IMO). If we cut Talib Watson Siemian Garcia and extend the RFA 2nd round tender to Paradis and Barrett we are a little short of 40M. We will likely spend 1M extra apiece to keep guys like Latimer (ST ace and WR depth) and maybe 2M on Barbre (depth versatile guy). So that’s about 35M. We would need about 6-7M minimum for our rookies. So cutting CJ to clear 4M more or getting at least 2M in cap relief seems necessary to free up the space to commit 35-40M in FA beyond RFA extensions rookies and resigns on depth guys we do need like Latimer / Barbre). It will hurt our CB corps but it’s do-able. The bigger Q IMO is if Cousins would want us as his first choice. And of course if we can address the holes in our roster enough to make the 3-4W upgrade Cousins potentially gives us as enough of a difference maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiehardBronxFan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 20 minutes ago, Broncofan said: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/ Cap top 51 - 28.6M (includes rollover) We have a no brainer cut next year - RT Menelik Watson saves 4M (actually creates 4.5M extra space but you have to assume Min salary of 500k for 51st guy taking his spot). Cutting Talib saves 10.5M (11M gained but 51st guy min wage 500k). That gets us to 43M. The 2nd round tenders to Paradis and Barrett cost 4M extra for the 2 spots. That’s 39M. I think we’d cut CJ to save 4M or at least get him to take a pay cut with incentives to save 1-2M. So yeah we are close to 40M. Garcia and Siemian both get raises to almost 2M each but it’s not guaranteed. So yeah both likely go but they are listed at 750k each in the above #’s so it doesn’t save us much (but costs us 3M to keep both with their raises so easy call to cut IMO). If we cut Talib Watson Siemian Garcia and extend the RFA 2nd round tender to Paradis and Barrett we are a little short of 40M. We will likely spend 1M extra apiece to keep guys like Latimer (ST ace and WR depth) and maybe 2M on Barbre (depth versatile guy). So that’s about 35M. We would need about 6-7M minimum for our rookies. So cutting CJ to clear 4M more or getting at least 2M in cap relief seems necessary to free up the space to commit 35-40M in FA beyond RFA extensions rookies and resigns on depth guys we do need like Latimer / Barbre). It will hurt our CB corps but it’s do-able. The bigger Q IMO is if Cousins would want us as his first choice. And of course if we can address the holes in our roster enough to make the 3-4W upgrade Cousins potentially gives us as enough of a difference maker. What about Sanders? Any savings from potentially cutting Sanders? And any chance of restructuring DT or Von? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 2 minutes ago, DiehardBronxFan said: What about Sanders? Any savings from potentially cutting Sanders? And any chance of restructuring DT or Von? Elway has never done a restructure that pushes the problem down the road and creates cap hell. Peyton was a bonus that only paid out if we got to the AFCG and SB. That was genius. Gotta tip your cap there to Elway so it’s hard to see him changing stripes - looking at teams like DAL and KC easy to see why it’s a sound principle to stick to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 17 minutes ago, Broncofan said: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/cap/ Cap top 51 - 28.6M (includes rollover) We have a no brainer cut next year - RT Menelik Watson saves 4M (actually creates 4.5M extra space but you have to assume Min salary of 500k for 51st guy taking his spot). Cutting Talib saves 10.5M (11M gained but 51st guy min wage 500k). That gets us to 43M. The 2nd round tenders to Paradis and Barrett cost 4M extra for the 2 spots. That’s 39M. I think we’d cut CJ to save 4M or at least get him to take a pay cut with incentives to save 1-2M. So yeah we are close to 40M. Garcia and Siemian both get raises to almost 2M each but it’s not guaranteed. So yeah both likely go but they are listed at 750k each in the above #’s so it doesn’t save us much (but costs us 3M to keep both with their raises so easy call to cut IMO). If we cut Talib Watson Siemian Garcia and extend the RFA 2nd round tender to Paradis and Barrett we are a little short of 40M. We will likely spend 1M extra apiece to keep guys like Latimer (ST ace and WR depth) and maybe 2M on Barbre (depth versatile guy). So that’s about 35M. We would need about 6-7M minimum for our rookies. So cutting CJ to clear 4M more or getting at least 2M in cap relief seems necessary to free up the space to commit 35-40M in FA beyond RFA extensions rookies and resigns on depth guys we do need like Latimer / Barbre). It will hurt our CB corps but it’s do-able. The bigger Q IMO is if Cousins would want us as his first choice. And of course if we can address the holes in our roster enough to make the 3-4W upgrade Cousins potentially gives us as enough of a difference maker. Not that it doesn’t happen occasionally, but Cousins will go to the highest bidder. 99% of the time that’s how it works. Whoever offers the most $$$, is where Cousins will end up. Unless we’re talking about a small difference, I don’t think situation will matter. Further, while Denver to us fans may not seem like a desirable destination, I have little doubt Elway is still highly regarded around the NFL. Let’s not forget Denver is only 2 years removed from a SB and did it paying a QB $96 million over 5 years and Denver’s team was arguably in worse shape when they signed Manning than it is now. I see Denver being a highly desirable destination for any player if the money is close to or matching other teams offers, especially at QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncofan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 minute ago, germ-x said: Not that it doesn’t happen occasionally, but Cousins will go to the highest bidder. 99% of the time that’s how it works. Whoever offers the most $$$, is where Cousins will end up. Unless we’re talking about a small difference, I don’t think situation will matter. Further, while Denver to us fans may not seem like a desirable destination, I have little doubt Elway is still highly regarded around the NFL. Let’s not forget Denver is only 2 years removed from a SB and did it paying a QB $96 million over 5 years and Denver’s team was arguably in worse shape when they signed Manning than it is now. I see Denver being a highly desirable destination for any player if the money is close to or matching other teams offers, especially at QB. I agree money talks - but Elway also never blows the market up he only pays market rates - so the offers are likely to be similar. Then it’s just who Cousins prefers. That’s all I’m saying - we might be more desirable than perceived but we can’t assume we are the top destination like many of us had pegged for Romo. It only takes 1 team to be more desirable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
germ-x Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 1 minute ago, Broncofan said: I agree money talks - but Elway also never blows the market up he only pays market rates - so the offers are likely to be similar. Then it’s just who Cousins prefers. That’s all I’m saying - we might be more desirable than perceived but we can’t assume we are the top destination like many of us had pegged for Romo. It only takes 1 team to be more desirable. Don’t disagree. But if Elway wants Cousins and is willing to pay Denver will get him, unless the market gets ridiculous. As much heat as Elway has been getting, he’s been one of the best GMs in FA in terms of money for value. I don’t think Denver being an unworthy destination will be an issue in signing Cousins. It’ll be how much Denver thinks he’s worth and where the market prices him. On that note, I fully expect Elway to make a strong push for Cousins unless the money for value gets out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiehardBronxFan Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 58 minutes ago, Broncofan said: Elway has never done a restructure that pushes the problem down the road and creates cap hell. Peyton was a bonus that only paid out if we got to the AFCG and SB. That was genius. Gotta tip your cap there to Elway so it’s hard to see him changing stripes - looking at teams like DAL and KC easy to see why it’s a sound principle to stick to. I've got a strong suspicion we're going to see some things out of Elway this off-season that we haven't seen before. For the first time since he's been in charge, he's under real pressure to make significant improvement THIS year. Can make you willing to "bend" your principles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebestever6 Posted January 11, 2018 Author Share Posted January 11, 2018 I think its funny that cousins is being pimped out he has a 99 to 55 career int ratio about the same as nick foles. 61 29. Is it worth spending all that,money for a player who might have the highest floor but the lowest ceiling of most of the qbs we can target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BroncosFan2010 Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Quote I think its funny that cousins is being pimped out he has a 99 to 55 career int ratio about the same as nick foles. 61 29. Is it worth spending all that,money for a player who might have the highest floor but the lowest ceiling of most of the qbs we can target. You have to get into the advanced stats to realize how good Cousins play has been. And the 'lowest ceiling' is a pretty stark claim. Kirk has a gunslinger mentality and live arm that none of the other guys available on the FA market possess, outside arguable Eli who is declining and almost certain to end up back in NY or w/ Coughlin in JAX. Tyrod is a game managing high caliber backup. He doesn't take enough chances down field, checks down all the time and gets injured at a high rate. Bridgewater seemed to be developing similarly to Tyrod in a low mistake making, mediocre arm having game manager. He takes a bit more shots down field but really is the guy that we hoped Siemien could develop into. And hasn't played in two years. Sam Bradford is also quite similar to the two above guys, but has degenerative knee issues and may have little mobility upon return. I would take any of the three above guys over our current stable of QB's, especially if cheap, but if we want a guy who can win a game for us at QB, its Kirk Cousins and Kirk Cousins only on this FA market (I exclude Eli because, again, he is so connected to NY and JAX that I have our odds at slim, he would be the #2 FA target at QB IMO). And the Foles comparison is disingenuous. Remove the aberration season under Kelly where he was 27 / 2 and his rate is 34 / 25. This team has 3.5 legitimate QB options this offseason; Kirk Cousins, Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold and the 0.5 is Eli Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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