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thebestever6

Is the Qb situation good enough?

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1 hour ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

You have to get into the advanced stats to realize how good Cousins play has been. And the 'lowest ceiling' is a pretty stark claim. Kirk has a gunslinger mentality and live arm that none of the other guys available on the FA market possess, outside arguable Eli who is declining and almost certain to end up back in NY or w/ Coughlin in JAX.

Tyrod is a game managing high caliber backup. He doesn't take enough chances down field, checks down all the time and gets injured at a high rate.

Bridgewater seemed to be developing similarly to Tyrod in a low mistake making, mediocre arm having game manager. He takes a bit more shots down field but really is the guy that we hoped Siemien could develop into. And hasn't played in two years.

Sam Bradford is also quite similar to the two above guys, but has degenerative knee issues and may have little mobility upon return.

I would take any of the three above guys over our current stable of QB's, especially if cheap, but if we want a guy who can win a game for us at QB, its Kirk Cousins and Kirk Cousins only on this FA market (I exclude Eli because, again, he is so connected to NY and JAX that I have our odds at slim, he would be the #2 FA target at QB IMO).

And the Foles comparison is disingenuous. Remove the aberration season under Kelly where he was 27 / 2 and his rate is 34 / 25.

This team has 3.5 legitimate QB options this offseason; Kirk Cousins, Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold and the 0.5 is Eli Manning.

 

I would go 5.0 allen, jackson and mayfield make up the rest.  Not top 5 obviously. 

Edited by thebestever6

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I would go 5.0 allen, jackson and mayfield make up the rest.  Not top 5 obviously. 

Ya, that's a understandable position to take. I don't think Allen or Jackson are ready to start from day one.

Allen to me is a Lynch/Osweiler level talent, someone with the physical tools and a NFL frame but who is sushi raw. I would wager he wouldn't post a 1/1 ratio if starting from day one.

Jackson is similar. His footwork is terrible and he relies far too much on one-read-and-run type plays. He isn't Russ Wilson, much more RG3. Scary frame too. Evaluating him as an athlete, he is a R1 talent. As a QB? R3.

Mayfield may have the strength, confidence and football IQ to play immediately, but I am far from sold on him. I hit on it before but its a huge red flag to me that he doesn't make adjustments at the LOS, that he never took behind-center snaps, that his game relies so much on improvisation, etc.

Simply put, I don't think we are the best team in the division with any of the above guys at the helm, where as with Cousins/Darnold/Rosen/Eli, I think we would be able to get back on top quite soon. And Elway will have that same mindset. He knows the impatience of this fan base, how we are spoiled by winning and legacy, and he wont gamble again with a raw, sit-and-learn QB, a bridge QB or a rookie Blake Bortles type 'let him start and roll with the bad play to help his future' type QB.

He will want a player that can be good immediately. He isn't going to let this team go three seasons with subpar QB play. His legacy and job are at stake.

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9 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Ya, that's a understandable position to take. I don't think Allen or Jackson are ready to start from day one.

Allen to me is a Lynch/Osweiler level talent, someone with the physical tools and a NFL frame but who is sushi raw. I would wager he wouldn't post a 1/1 ratio if starting from day one.

Jackson is similar. His footwork is terrible and he relies far too much on one-read-and-run type plays. He isn't Russ Wilson, much more RG3. Scary frame too. Evaluating him as an athlete, he is a R1 talent. As a QB? R3.

Mayfield may have the strength, confidence and football IQ to play immediately, but I am far from sold on him. I hit on it before but its a huge red flag to me that he doesn't make adjustments at the LOS, that he never took behind-center snaps, that his game relies so much on improvisation, etc.

Simply put, I don't think we are the best team in the division with any of the above guys at the helm, where as with Cousins/Darnold/Rosen/Eli, I think we would be able to get back on top quite soon. And Elway will have that same mindset. He knows the impatience of this fan base, how we are spoiled by winning and legacy, and he wont gamble again with a raw, sit-and-learn QB, a bridge QB or a rookie Blake Bortles type 'let him start and roll with the bad play to help his future' type QB.

He will want a player that can be good immediately. He isn't going to let this team go three seasons with subpar QB play. His legacy and job are at stake.

There's nothing stopping him  from taking a bridgewater level qb in free agency and drafting allen or jackson. Heck if we landed Barkley he alone would help growing pains for either player.

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There's nothing stopping him  from taking a bridgewater level qb in free agency and drafting allen or jackson. Heck if we landed Barkley he alone would help growing pains for either player.

There isn't anything stopping him from putting Riley Dixon at QB, I just don't expect him to do so.

Elway most likely isn't going to want to relive his 'Plan A' from the 2015/16 season, notably a questionable bridge QB (Sanchez) with a 'omg soooo toolzy' R1 QB sitting and learning (Lynch).

Signing Teddy and sitting Allen/Jackson would be like groundhogs day.

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My pre-draft season rookie QB list:

 

1. Rosen

(significant gap)

2. Jackson (not gonna happen)

3. Mayfield (could happen but don't love it at 5)

4. Darnold (really no opinion yet, this is based off vibes)

Josh Allen way tf away from my list

Edited by champ11

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49 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

There isn't anything stopping him from putting Riley Dixon at QB, I just don't expect him to do so.

Elway most likely isn't going to want to relive his 'Plan A' from the 2015/16 season, notably a questionable bridge QB (Sanchez) with a 'omg soooo toolzy' R1 QB sitting and learning (Lynch).

Signing Teddy and sitting Allen/Jackson would be like groundhogs day.

That's where I'm at too.  Just judging from Elway's character and the current situation of the franchise I don't see him settling for whoever falls to 5.  Either he goes after the best QB in Free Agency regardless of price (Cousins) or he trades up to make sure he gets the QB he wants.  Elway is going to be aggressive in fixing the QB spot for better or worse.

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19 minutes ago, champ11 said:

My pre-draft season rookie QB list:

 

1. Rosen

(significant gap)

2. Jackson (not gonna happen)

3. Mayfield (could happen but don't love it at 5)

4. Darnold (really no opinion yet, this is based off vibes)

Josh Allen way tf away from my list

Right now for me it's:

 

1. Darnold

2. Mayfield 

3. Rosen

4. Allen

5. Rudolph

6. Jackson

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I made this post about Rosen on another forum: 

 

Quote

I've read and heard some concerning things about his personality and make-up. 

He's clashed with coaches, there were reports that teammates didn't like him all that much, and reports about whether or not he really LOVES football or just the celebrity and perks that come with being an NFL QB.

Those things worry me, not what he thinks about Trump or collegiate athletes. I couldn't care less about that.

 

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Ya, I just don't buy the personality issues with Rosen. Maybe he is a bit immature, but I will gamble on a immature, slightly abrasive personality if that player knows how to play the game.

Rosen isn't Tim Tebow, or even Baker Mayfield when it comes to passion and fire for the game, but we have seen innumerable QB's that are not 'rah rah' types succeed, and vice versa.

Its far more important for a QB to have natural accuracy, good mechanics, crisp footwork. There is little chance that Rosen doesn't love football. Any college athlete willing to deal with the rigors of the sport has to love it. I know that I would choose girls and beer at 19 over the rigors of football training. So if the critique is that Rosen doesn't bleed football, that he has a social life, likes to have a few drinks, chases girls from time-to-time, isn't doing insane film room hours, then I have zero issue.

Mayfield somehow gets a pass for getting violently drunk because he likes to clap his hands on the sideline and makes people think of idealistic ideas of what a QB on the field should act like. Rosen has whispers about being entitled and he gets thrown under the bus. Its pretty clear to me who has more red flags.

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27 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Ya, I just don't buy the personality issues with Rosen. Maybe he is a bit immature, but I will gamble on a immature, slightly abrasive personality if that player knows how to play the game.

Rosen isn't Tim Tebow, or even Baker Mayfield when it comes to passion and fire for the game, but we have seen innumerable QB's that are not 'rah rah' types succeed, and vice versa.

Its far more important for a QB to have natural accuracy, good mechanics, crisp footwork. There is little chance that Rosen doesn't love football. Any college athlete willing to deal with the rigors of the sport has to love it. I know that I would choose girls and beer at 19 over the rigors of football training. So if the critique is that Rosen doesn't bleed football, that he has a social life, likes to have a few drinks, chases girls from time-to-time, isn't doing insane film room hours, then I have zero issue.

Mayfield somehow gets a pass for getting violently drunk because he likes to clap his hands on the sideline and makes people think of idealistic ideas of what a QB on the field should act like. Rosen has whispers about being entitled and he gets thrown under the bus. Its pretty clear to me who has more red flags.

These things didn't come out of thin air. Stanford was supposedly his dream school and when he went on campus during a recruiting trip, they pulled his offer. There were reports about him being overbearing and entitled. He got into a feud with Trent Dilfer during his time at one of his camps. He repeatedly clashed with coaches at UCLA. In fact, Jim Mora was on record comparing him to Johnny Manziel due to some of his behavior. There has also been reports about his teammates not liking him.

People can try to handwave this stuff away, but at a position like QB, where leadership is paramount, intangibles matter. 

Edited by BroncoSojia

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49 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

Ya, I just don't buy the personality issues with Rosen. Maybe he is a bit immature, but I will gamble on a immature, slightly abrasive personality if that player knows how to play the game.

Rosen isn't Tim Tebow, or even Baker Mayfield when it comes to passion and fire for the game, but we have seen innumerable QB's that are not 'rah rah' types succeed, and vice versa.

Its far more important for a QB to have natural accuracy, good mechanics, crisp footwork.

 

There is little chance that Rosen doesn't love football. Any college athlete willing to deal with the rigors of the sport has to love it. I know that I would choose girls and beer at 19 over the rigors of football training. So if the critique is that Rosen doesn't bleed football, that he has a social life, likes to have a few drinks, chases girls from time-to-time, isn't doing insane film room hours, then I have zero issue.

Mayfield somehow gets a pass for getting violently drunk because he likes to clap his hands on the sideline and makes people think of idealistic ideas of what a QB on the field should act like. Rosen has whispers about being entitled and he gets thrown under the bus. Its pretty clear to me who has more red flags.

This above all else holds true.   Athletic freaks who can’t do the above fail in the NFL.  Rosen (and Darnold) are the only 2 that check off all those boxes.  

The only other key skills are anticipation / placement to fit the tight windows, and pocket awareness to deal with pressure, and eyes up with pressure to extend plays.   Darnold checks all the boxes there.   Rosen from what I’ve seen checks out well although there’s less film against elite competition with his injury and UCLA’s schedule.   

Honestly I hope that Rosen character issues become a bigger thing.   Guys with elite talent who fall because of non-football issues if it’s not drug related and it hasn’t affected on the field performance are boom picks far more than busts.    Guys with average or non-elite talent, the headache may not be worth it.  But for elite talent if you add value gains then it’s a no brainer. 

If Rosen falls to us at 1.5 I’d hope Elway runs to the podium.  

Edited by Broncofan

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If Rosen falls to us at 1.5 I’d hope Elway runs to the podium.  

And I believe that he would run because Rosen's character flags wont scare him, in fact they may remind him of himself to a lesser degree. The entitlement part especially. People forget 1983 John Elway.

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40 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

And I believe that he would run because Rosen's character flags wont scare him, in fact they may remind him of himself to a lesser degree. The entitlement part especially. People forget 1983 John Elway.

Yeah, but what about the Bossa Nova? Huge fiasco that was.  

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16 hours ago, germ-x said:

I fully expect Elway to make a strong push for Cousins unless the money for value gets out of control.

This is what I expect as well.

One, none of the QBs in this class are "can't miss" prospects; all have question marks and/or red flags in one way or another. All are a significant roll of the dice and I don't think Elway is willing to state his legacy on one of them. If he goes 0/3 on drafting QBs that's going to be his death knell. 

Two, this team needs a quick turn around. Cheapskate Joe Ellis can't even find a naming rights partner and if the team continues to languish in the lower-third of the league, doesn't get prime time and nationally-televised games, has empty seats at home games because the fan base is disinterested, he loses leverage with any corporation willing to shell out eight-figures a year to have their name plastered on the side of the stadium. 

I think signing Kirk Cousins, even if it costs $30m, is Plan A for the team right now.

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49 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

This is what I expect as well.

One, none of the QBs in this class are "can't miss" prospects; all have question marks and/or red flags in one way or another. All are a significant roll of the dice and I don't think Elway is willing to state his legacy on one of them. If he goes 0/3 on drafting QBs that's going to be his death knell. 

Two, this team needs a quick turn around. Cheapskate Joe Ellis can't even find a naming rights partner and if the team continues to languish in the lower-third of the league, doesn't get prime time and nationally-televised games, has empty seats at home games because the fan base is disinterested, he loses leverage with any corporation willing to shell out eight-figures a year to have their name plastered on the side of the stadium. 

I think signing Kirk Cousins, even if it costs $30m, is Plan A for the team right now.

What if Cleveland throws that kind of money at Cousins?  They have a much better offensive line, which it seems like he needs to thrive...he didn't fair well this year behind the Redskin's make shift line...their line might have been worse than ours.  I am just saying, Cousins could walk into the same money, behind a better line, and the Browns have two top five picks to build that team.  

I am hoping and praying Cousins goes there. 

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