CJ Mosley Trade Value

[DreamKid]

1 minute ago, Darth Pees said:

Two things: How does Henry have more potential than Jernigan?

Also, "If we had good LB's we'd be getting better value out of...", what does that mean? We have Suggs, Judon, Bowser, Smith, and Williams on the outside along with Mosley on the inside. It's hard to argue for a better group of LB's than that. You can definitely make the argument that if we got better production out of them that maybe it would be easier for them to gobble up people, but I don't know. One of my main criticisms of Pees this year in terms of LB usage was how often Judon dropped into coverage, despite being one of our better pass rushers. Furthermore, if we're going to play an OLB in coverage so often, why the hell wouldn't it be Correa so that we could then allow Judon to rush the passer?!

Because he's two years younger, and just played his first regular season all the while producing at a high level. His physical profile is better, and seems to be a smarter more driven player. In every quantifiable way he has more upside.

If we had LBs who were stronger against the run, the effect caused by Williams and Pierce would mean more to the team. Mosley and Peanut are horrible against the run. Judon excels at blowing up screen passes and such but isn't a consistent pass rusher and is weak against the run. Only Suggs can set an edge at OLB on this team, Smith, Judon, Bowser, Williams, non of them are plus against the run. 

When teams ran at us with success they would usually attack our edges. If we were sturdier at OLB and Mosley/Peanut could attack their run fits better what happened in that Cinci game early could've been avoided.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

4 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

Because he's two years younger, and just played his first regular season all the while producing at a high level. His physical profile is better, and seems to be a smarter more driven player. In every quantifiable way he has more upside.

If we had LBs who were stronger against the run, the effect caused by Williams and Pierce would mean more to the team. Mosley and Peanut are horrible against the run. Judon excels at blowing up screen passes and such but isn't a consistent pass rusher and is weak against the run. Only Suggs can set an edge at OLB on this team, Smith, Judon, Bowser, Williams, non of them are plus against the run. 

When teams ran at us with success they would usually attack our edges. If we were sturdier at OLB and Mosley/Peanut could attack their run fits better what happened in that Cinci game early could've been avoided.

I think we have different definitions of "high level". I don't think Henry played at a high level at all. Was he a "solid" starter, all things considered? Probably.

We do have LB's who are strong against the run - Suggs and Za'Darius Smith. We just mis-utilize them all the damn time. Judon isn't bad, either. I don't see what having better ILB's would do to take blockers off the DL guys. They're there to chew up blockers anyways and allow the ILB's to run free and make tackles. Getting better ILB's isn't going to take away from Williams and Pierce commanding double teams.

I think we just fundamentally need to use our OLB's better, and obviously we need to upgrade MLB #2 and Mosley needs to be shed some weight and get his athleticism back. I don't think large changes need to be made there. Funny enough, all this talk about needing better LB's and we just promoted their coach lol

[DreamKid]

1 minute ago, Darth Pees said:

I think we have different definitions of "high level". I don't think Henry played at a high level at all. Was he a "solid" starter, all things considered? Probably.

We do have LB's who are strong against the run - Suggs and Za'Darius Smith. We just mis-utilize them all the damn time. Judon isn't bad, either. I don't see what having better ILB's would do to take blockers off the DL guys. They're there to chew up blockers anyways and allow the ILB's to run free and make tackles. Getting better ILB's isn't going to take away from Williams and Pierce commanding double teams.

I think we just fundamentally need to use our OLB's better, and obviously we need to upgrade MLB #2 and Mosley needs to be shed some weight and get his athleticism back. I don't think large changes need to be made there. Funny enough, all this talk about needing better LB's and we just promoted their coach lol

A solid starter would be a higher level of play, Carl Davis would be an example of your average guy.

https://twitter.com/nevkinturand/status/948333725485592576/video/1  A good example of Smith being strong against the run.

Here's Judon, Mosley, and Peanut. https://twitter.com/nevkinturand/status/948334446071177226/video/1

"I don't see what having better ILB's would do to take blockers off the DL guys. They're there to chew up blockers anyways and allow the ILB's to run free and make tackles. Getting better ILB's isn't going to take away from Williams and Pierce commanding double teams.", I never made that point you misread my initial statement. I said not having LBs who take advantage of Pierce and Williams means we aren't getting a full return or the most we could out of Pierce and Williams. 

Yea Wink being promoted with this group as his calling card is certainly something. Hopefully he gets Bowser and Williams in to the fold, like Pees failed to. 

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, DreamKid said:

A solid starter would be a higher level of play, Carl Davis would be an example of your average guy.

https://twitter.com/nevkinturand/status/948333725485592576/video/1  A good example of Smith being strong against the run.

Here's Judon, Mosley, and Peanut. https://twitter.com/nevkinturand/status/948334446071177226/video/1

"I don't see what having better ILB's would do to take blockers off the DL guys. They're there to chew up blockers anyways and allow the ILB's to run free and make tackles. Getting better ILB's isn't going to take away from Williams and Pierce commanding double teams.", I never made that point you misread my initial statement. I said not having LBs who take advantage of Pierce and Williams means we aren't getting a full return or the most we could out of Pierce and Williams. 

Yea Wink being promoted with this group as his calling card is certainly something. Hopefully he gets Bowser and Williams in to the fold, like Pees failed to. 

Jernigan was also a solid starter, yet added much more pass rush than Henry, so I'm still lost at how Henry has more upside than Jernigan did?

That gif I see Smith setting the edge, forcing the run back inside, but the pursuit from the linebackers not getting there. Peanut gets caught up in the wash and Mosley can't get off the block.

To your bolded - ahhhh yes that makes much more sense and I would agree with that.

To your last sentence - Yes I certainly hope so. There's so much versatility and specialized talents with this group and it was so disappointing to see Suggs used as our pass rusher, Judon as the coverage guy, Smith used as a rotational player, while Bowser and Williams were benched.

[EastsideEZ]

No one is saying that at times Williams and pierce don’t demand doubles... what I’m saying is they are basically the same guy and they don’t actually make enough tackles... Kelly Gregg was similar to them but also made 100 tackles... C.J. is top 5 at his position... perennial pro bowler and all pro... he is definitely not the problem... that’s all I’m saying... no he isn’t ray Lewis... but outside of luke kuechly and Bobby Wagner there isn’t a inside backer any better than Mosley... get him a competent counterpart and everyone will be able to see he isn’t the problem

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

If we get another counterpart to go with Mosley, I just hope he sheds weight and gets faster. Also, the one thing that gif that @DreamKid posted told me was that our DL did a very poor job of eating up blockers and letting our ILB's move around freely. Williams isn't doubled and doesn't do anything to disrupt the play, and Henry actually pushes the guard into Peanut, killing any chance of a pursuit from Peanut. 

[DreamKid]

16 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

Jernigan was also a solid starter, yet added much more pass rush than Henry, so I'm still lost at how Henry has more upside than Jernigan did?

That gif I see Smith setting the edge, forcing the run back inside, but the pursuit from the linebackers not getting there. Peanut gets caught up in the wash and Mosley can't get off the block.

To your bolded - ahhhh yes that makes much more sense and I would agree with that.

To your last sentence - Yes I certainly hope so. There's so much versatility and specialized talents with this group and it was so disappointing to see Suggs used as our pass rusher, Judon as the coverage guy, Smith used as a rotational player, while Bowser and Williams were benched.

I think you're equating upside to who is the exact better player right now. 

Smith can't get off his block and makes an incorrect step also he doesn't stonewall the tackle. Smith is the best after Suggs but still not good against the run. We don't need to even go there with the ILBs, embarrassing right? It's a beautiful run by Mixon I believe, facilitated by our dopes at ILB.

3 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

If we get another counterpart to go with Mosley, I just hope he sheds weight and gets faster. Also, the one thing that gif that @DreamKid posted told me was that our DL did a very poor job of eating up blockers and letting our ILB's move around freely. Williams isn't doubled and doesn't do anything to disrupt the play, and Henry actually pushes the guard into Peanut, killing any chance of a pursuit from Peanut. 

That's really what you got from it? Brandon almost blew up the entire play but bit on Mixon's fake inside. Then with Smith failing on the outside, Mosley failing from inside, Mixon got positive yardage. Peanut hesitated and didn't attack when he should have, he also bit on the fake as well.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Williams never pushed the C back at all, he just went horizontal with him. Sure, Peanut didn't hit the gap, but Willie Henry throwing his guy into Peanut didn't help anything. Lots of things went wrong on that play, but I think Za'Darius is the least of the problems there. He set the edge and forced the run back inside. The worst you can say about him is that he didn't get off the blocker and make the tackle once he set the edge.

[M.10.E]

Our ILBs look AWFUL on that second run LMAO. That looks like me out there.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

16 minutes ago, M.10.E said:

Our ILBs look AWFUL on that second run LMAO. That looks like me out there.

Oh my, I didn't even watch the 2nd gif but WHAT IS CJ MOSLEY DOING?!?!?!?!?

My gosh, we have 4 guys on the left side of the Center and THEY STILL out flank us to the sidelines lol I'm just actually in disbelief at that play. Also, why is Peanut lined up at OLB?!

[DreamKid]

Yea a far cry from our old days at LB huh fellas?

[diamondbull424]

39 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

That's really what you got from it? Brandon almost blew up the entire play but bit on Mixon's fake inside. Then with Smith failing on the outside, Mosley failing from inside, Mixon got positive yardage. Peanut hesitated and didn't attack when he should have, he also bit on the fake as well.

That play isn’t on Mosley. Any defender knows you want to force the runner inside there. Brandon Williams sold out on holding his gap integrity to make a play in the backfield, which is fine is he makes the play, all can be forgiven.

But his job was supposed to be to maintain gap integrity and force the play inside. If the runner was dumb enough to run outside, Williams should’ve been there to gobble him up in the backfield.

In fact, Williams was the number one problem on that play. If he seals off his hole and prevent the runner from getting outside, #48 stops the runner for a 2 yard gain (unless he misses the tackle, in which Mosley should now already be disengaging his block and attacking for assistance).

Furthermore, Mosley stays disciplined on the play. His job is supposed to be to take on the block and force the run to go back inside, leaving #48 and the runner as the matchup. The only thing, Mosley could’ve done extra on that play would have been to knife in before the blocker gets onto him and make a stop in the backfield. Either that or toss the blocker to the ground.

Because if Mosley sells out and sheds his blocker too early, he allows the blocker to potentially get his hands on #48 (if he sheds and attacks outside) while only giving himself no time to size up the runner and with no leverage, against a big back like that and that’s a broken tackle waiting to happen. If Mosley sheds inside, then the blocker simply readjusts and seals him inside and gives the runner and even bigger crease to work with (especially since Mosley would be the one to go on and make the play at the second level later on). So for Mosley to shed his block would’ve been selfish and left his teammates exposed, which is exactly what Williams did on the play.

Brandon Williams did a great job to blow up his block, but any “good” NFL defensive lineman should be able to blow up a single blocker, it’s the elite ones that can do that to multiple blockers (not saying that he can’t do that, just making a statement). But being a great player sometimes means you have to know when to stay disciplined and when to make a play. Williams chose wrong on that play and the rest of the defense suffered. In fact a smarter play would’ve been to simply ride his blocker backwards until the offensive lineman blew up the play inadvertently. But because Williams is short, he likely couldn’t see enough over the blocker to recognize that opportunity.

TL;DR: Brandon Williams overpursued as opposed to staying disciplined and the defense suffered.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

@diamondbull424 are you talking about play #2 or play #1?

[DreamKid]

4 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

That play isn’t on Mosley.

I didn't post that one for Mosley, it was for Smith. It was an example of how a stronger edge player against the run could've made a play. The second one I posted mentioned Mosley.

Yea Williams tried to make a play and it didn't work out, Mixon just got too many of them to bite on the fake. I only mentioned Williams because Darth said he doesn't blow him up and clearly he did, and in doing so made the error.

3 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

@diamondbull424 are you talking about play #2 or play #1?

He's talking about #1.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

@DreamKid I don't see Williams "blow up" the C on that play. Watch where the C goes the whole play. He never goes backwards. Williams destroys the C on the 2nd play, though, and it's hilarious because the guy ends up just standing around staring into space until Peanut runs into him.