DIVISION WEEK MOCK

[IDOG_det]

Just now, Superduperman said:

The overall point remains the same. If the Lions go to a primarily 3-down-linemen system, they have two options for Ansah: ask him to bulk up a little and continue to play on the line in a down stance, or have him standing up and occasionally playing in space

Except that's not the case. A front with 3 down lineman doesn't have to use personnel vastly different than what the Lions already have. Ansah could remain a 7T/9T while A'Shawn and Ngata can remain the 1T/3T. The difference would be the other DE spot. The end would move to a 2 point stance technically making him a LB and not a DE. There really is no difference because the player is still asked to do the same job. The only difference is the stance. Defenses that favor an odd front don't ask all of their ends to weigh 300 pounds and play 5T, most of them just stand up one end and call it an odd front when, in reality, it's the same as an even front. The only options aren't just "bulk him up" or "play him in space". The option of "change nothing at all" exists.

You're describing a very specific 3-4 front that used to be a base scheme but is now a sub package. Most 3-4 teams run a 2-4-5 or a 4-2-5 the majority of the time. You're describing a 3-4 Okie front, where the defense has two 5T and a 0T all 2-gapping with two stand-up outside LB's containing the edge.

That isn't exactly how the defense would be run with the Lions personnel. If they want to run that alignment Ansah would play the 7T with the option to put his hand in the ground if he is more comfortable with that. That doesn't require him to bulk up or play in space. It's the same job he has now.

 

Here is how the Mike Vrabel led Texans defense aligned their defense against that same exact personnel grouping and same exact formation

That's a 3-4 defense running what looks a lot like a 4-3 defense to me...the only difference between that and what the Lions have done under Teryl Austin is the tighter alignment.

 

Here's what the Texans often do against smaller personnel groupings. It's a 3-3-5 defense where one end is playing a typical "4-3 DE" assignment, one DT is lined up as a 2i, and one is lined up as a 3T. Then they have 3 LB's on the play, where two are playing off the ball while one is lined up on the LOS in a 2-point stance. In this defense, Ansah would not be standing up, someone else would. Again, Ansah's role in this "3-4 defense" hasn't changed.

 

vs a spread formation this is how they aligned their defensive line

Notice how the defensive line doesn't actually change their alignment. The difference is that there's less of them with a LB taking the place of the DE that was removed from the other side of the defense.

 

Ansah wouldn't need to bulk up to play in a "3-4 defense" because he wouldn't be playing 5T. He won't really need to play in space any more than he already does because his assignment will be the same and he will be given the option to put his hand on the ground in alignments that typically ask for his position to be in a 2-point stance. The NFL predominately plays in nickel defenses because offenses are often in 11, 10, or 20 personnel. Nickel defenses all basically look the same regardless of whether you run a "4-3" or "3-4".

[Karnage84]

13 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

Except that's not the case. A front with 3 down lineman doesn't have to use personnel vastly different than what the Lions already have. Ansah could remain a 7T/9T while A'Shawn and Ngata can remain the 1T/3T. The difference would be the other DE spot. The end would move to a 2 point stance technically making him a LB and not a DE. There really is no difference because the player is still asked to do the same job. The only difference is the stance. Defenses that favor an odd front don't ask all of their ends to weigh 300 pounds and play 5T, most of them just stand up one end and call it an odd front when, in reality, it's the same as an even front. The only options aren't just "bulk him up" or "play him in space". The option of "change nothing at all" exists.

You're describing a very specific 3-4 front that used to be a base scheme but is now a sub package. Most 3-4 teams run a 2-4-5 or a 4-2-5 the majority of the time. You're describing a 3-4 Okie front, where the defense has two 5T and a 0T all 2-gapping with two stand-up outside LB's containing the edge.

That isn't exactly how the defense would be run with the Lions personnel. If they want to run that alignment Ansah would play the 7T with the option to put his hand in the ground if he is more comfortable with that. That doesn't require him to bulk up or play in space. It's the same job he has now.

 

Here is how the Mike Vrabel led Texans defense aligned their defense against that same exact personnel grouping and same exact formation

That's a 3-4 defense running what looks a lot like a 4-3 defense to me...the only difference between that and what the Lions have done under Teryl Austin is the tighter alignment.

 

Here's what the Texans often do against smaller personnel groupings. It's a 3-3-5 defense where one end is playing a typical "4-3 DE" assignment, one DT is lined up as a 2i, and one is lined up as a 3T. Then they have 3 LB's on the play, where two are playing off the ball while one is lined up on the LOS in a 2-point stance. In this defense, Ansah would not be standing up, someone else would. Again, Ansah's role in this "3-4 defense" hasn't changed.

 

vs a spread formation this is how they aligned their defensive line

Notice how the defensive line doesn't actually change their alignment. The difference is that there's less of them with a LB taking the place of the DE that was removed from the other side of the defense.

 

Ansah wouldn't need to bulk up to play in a "3-4 defense" because he wouldn't be playing 5T. He won't really need to play in space any more than he already does because his assignment will be the same and he will be given the option to put his hand on the ground in alignments that typically ask for his position to be in a 2-point stance. The NFL predominately plays in nickel defenses because offenses are often in 11, 10, or 20 personnel. Nickel defenses all basically look the same regardless of whether you run a "4-3" or "3-4".

Thanks for the breakdown. Very informative and helps to figure out what this defense might look like next year. Would Robinson be a proper fit at DE under this new scheme?

[Superduperman]

Ok, that does explain it a little further. It's good to know Ansah would have a clear fit in what Patricia or Vrabel would do, but the question still to be answered is, do the Lions want to pay him what they'll have to pay him to fill that role?

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, Superduperman said:

Ok, that does explain it a little further. It's good to know Ansah would have a clear fit in what Patricia or Vrabel would do, but the question still to be answered is, do the Lions want to pay him what they'll have to pay him to fill that role?

He'll be a top FA target and command $12M for 3- 4 years. If you're going to pay him, I'd prefer on the Franchise Tag. Yes, it's more expensive this year.. however we get a season to see how he would fit in this new scheme. We'd also get to see which player we're buying - the 2015 Pro Bowler or 2016's utter disappointment. Because 2017 has been all over the place. The numbers don't look that different than 2015 but we all know otherwise.

[IDOG_det]

34 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Thanks for the breakdown. Very informative and helps to figure out what this defense might look like next year. Would Robinson be a proper fit at DE under this new scheme?

Robinson would also mostly keep the same role. Occasionally he would play 5T but it would be against heavier fronts with 3 DT's on the field. 

[Karnage84]

21 minutes ago, IDOG_det said:

Robinson would also mostly keep the same role. Occasionally he would play 5T but it would be against heavier fronts with 3 DT's on the field. 

Just spitballing but what if a guy like Mangini was brought in as Co-DC/Assistant HC. There is a familiarity with the system and he has experience as a HC for two teams. He could use his experiences to teach an inexperienced guy like Vrabel on how to avoid certain pitfalls.

[IDOG_det]

8 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Just spitballing but what if a guy like Mangini was brought in as Co-DC/Assistant HC. There is a familiarity with the system and he has experience as a HC for two teams. He could use his experiences to teach an inexperienced guy like Vrabel on how to avoid certain pitfalls.

I can't speak much on Mangini, he hasn't coached in a long time. There could be some familiarity between him and Bob Quinn though.

[lioneye22]

Sounds like Patricia is going to be the HC, per Ian Rappoport on Good Morning Football this morning.  He believes it was always Patricia.

[Karnage84]

7 minutes ago, lioneye22 said:

Sounds like Patricia is going to be the HC, per Ian Rappoport on Good Morning Football this morning.  He believes it was always Patricia.

Yeah - it changes some things up a bit. I would expect someone that is a former Patriot LB instead of Cushing although he could still wind up being an option.