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CaliforniaKid7

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15 minutes ago, showtime said:

What I was saying is, double pump wasn't being used by most people last week.  Most people used silenced SMG's because they were the best weapon in the entire game.  And if people did use a shotgun, it was the shotgun/SMG combo.  At the time they completely removed double pump from the game, it wasn't even meta defining.  It's just an odd time to do it.

Plus, all people have done so far is replace double pump with:  pump/SMG or pump/drum gun.  It's the same exact concept, except different guns are being used.  So what did this really solve?

And shotgun/SMG was already being used by a lot of people before season 5.

The only difference between shotgun/SMG and double pump is that when people like Dae use double pump it 100% looks like cheating to anybody who doesn't know how double pump works. Anybody can shot off a shotgun blast and switch to an SMG and spray, double pumping consistently requires developing an entirely new and unique muscle memory rotation.

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1 minute ago, TXsteeler said:

The only difference between shotgun/SMG and double pump is that when people like Dae use double pump it 100% looks like cheating to anybody who doesn't know how double pump works. Anybody can shot off a shotgun blast and switch to an SMG and spray, double pumping consistently requires developing an entirely new and unique muscle memory rotation.

That was the point.  Anybody can use a shotgun and SMG... not everyone can double pump effectively and do it consistently.  That's why I was saying that double pump does take some skill to use.

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Just now, showtime said:

Yea, I have played.  Pros define the meta of the game, so I was waiting to see them tinker with it.

Yeah but the new timer can not be overcome with skill, You can use multiple pumps to avoid reloading after 5 shots but you can not shoot faster with 2 then you can with 1 until that point.

Also, pro level play is so much higher than normal people's that their meta won't necessarily work for most people in most games  on console anyways, and I suspect the skill gap is still very large on computer. I've gotten to the final 5 like 6 or 6 times and won 3 times in the past day and every time at the end it's just a couple people building big towers. Only one time did I see anybody trying to build battle at the very end and I just dropped down and shot the two connecting pieces he had and killed him that way.

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3 minutes ago, showtime said:

That was the point.  Anybody can use a shotgun and SMG... not everyone can double pump effectively and do it consistently.  That's why I was saying that double pump does take some skill to use.

It takes practice, but it's something anybody could nail down in a couple hours, less skill than something like out building someone effectively or just aiming very well in general.

I suspect the real reason they nerfed it is because of how inconsistent shotgun damage is, and how frustrating and random that makes the game, and doing so will draw most people away from using shotguns outside of one or two shots before using an smg or rifle to try and finish people off.

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55 minutes ago, showtime said:

Zero skill?  You were one of the people who were saying that it couldn't be done on console like it could on PC.  

Because they nerfed it for a bit, didn’t realize it had been unnerfed. It’s not difficult at all. You shoot, switch, listen for the click and shoot. What about that takes skill?

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1 hour ago, MookieMonstah said:

What about that takes skill?

If we follow your logic here, pretty much nothing takes skill.

If you've practiced it enough, quickly throwing up a solid build is just simple muscle memory. If you've double-pumped enough, you'll just know the tempo of it and be able to switch seamlessly. But for both examples you have to put in time to develop those skills. EDIT: For the record, I have neither of these skills :P

Regardless, it doesn't really matter if it was OP or meta, if they didn't like the interaction it was fine to tweak (or in this case, kill) it. TBH it seems like the shotgun-smg thing is sort of inflated by how good the drum gun is. I didn't play much until recently, and I feel like half of all my kills in this game are probably with the drum gun xD

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25 minutes ago, James said:

If we follow your logic here, pretty much nothing takes skill.

If you've practiced it enough, quickly throwing up a solid build is just simple muscle memory. If you've double-pumped enough, you'll just know the tempo of it and be able to switch seamlessly. But for both examples you have to put in time to develop those skills. EDIT: For the record, I have neither of these skills :P

Regardless, it doesn't really matter if it was OP or meta, if they didn't like the interaction it was fine to tweak (or in this case, kill) it. TBH it seems like the shotgun-smg thing is sort of inflated by how good the drum gun is. I didn't play much until recently, and I feel like half of all my kills in this game are probably with the drum gun xD

A lot of people probably define something as a skill if it requires a significant amount of time to develop and can be done in a large degrees of competency .

For example think of a sport, most people could learn to shoot a free throw or throw a spiral or what have you, but most people can not consistently hit 3's while being defended or throw 60 yard passes to a moving target the size of the football while running away from pass rushers.

Double pumping does (did) not require a significant amount of time to develop, nor can (could) it be done in any more than four levels of "skill", not at all, barely at all, with misclick mistakes, slowly, and properly.

Building in Fortnite is a good example of something that takes many, many hours of practice, requires more than just muscle memory, and can be done at many different levels with no true perfect level.

 

Also the drumgun is definitely strong. I take a green one over blue M16's now along with a shotty and tac SMG.

In fact very few guns/items in this game are at a very reasonable level of usefulness imo, most of them are either useless or OP.

Pretty much all scoped rifles, all semi auto snipers, all pistols except Deagles, double, and silenced, all burst rifles except famas, all heavy machine guns except golden minigun, stink bombs, boogie bombs, impulse grenades, port-a-forts, and bushes Aren't worth carrying around much past early game unless you get unlucky with other loot, and even the minigun, grenades/C4/stickies, deagles, silenced pistols, are niche/temporarily used.

And even out of the weapon types left a lot of them are pretty clearly superior or inferior, like the Famas/Scar being the best mid range guns in the game, the silenced pistols and deagles being outshined by SMGs and snipers/shotguns respectively, and rockets outshining grenade launcher. Obviously some of that is due to available rarities like in the case of the AR's, but not all of them. A lot of people would take a green hunting rifle over an epic deagle, or even a green tacSMG over a golden silenced pistol.

If they did a poll of top 5 items you would like to have, it would be a bunch of votes for gold Famas, Scar, Rockets, Bolt Sniper, double pistols, Heavy Shotgun and maybe grenade launcher. The Purple TacSMG, Blue drumgun, pump, silenced SMG, and maybe the tac shotty. Shield potions, minis, med kits, and chug jugs. That's no throwables and about only half the weapon types in the game, and that's if you consider things like the AR's/bursts to include the scars and famas, and the revolers/pistols to include the deagles/silenced pistol.

I don't know if that's really a bad thing or not but playing the game in 50vs50 when your team is rolling through the other team and you see literally hundreds of dropped items of the ground you realize just how many of them are extremely easy to pass up on.

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6 minutes ago, TXsteeler said:

Double pumping does (did) not require a significant amount of time to develop, nor can (could) it be done in any more than four levels of "skill", not at all, barely at all, with misclick mistakes, slowly, and properly.

Building in Fortnite is a good example of something that takes many, many hours of practice, requires more than just muscle memory, and can be done at many different levels with no true perfect level.

Double pump seems closer to a binary "can you or can't you?", but at this point we're just really getting into semantics.

And outside of obvious stuff I don't think I'm skilled enough to really comment on weapon balance. I can't snipe or pistol well enough to judge them, but I know a lot of people like the hunting rifles and double pistols. C4 seems really strong but I guess its pretty situational, and I had fun using clingers to get the 3 nade kills for the week 1 challenge.

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Also I like how the Scar and the famas are higher levels of the AR/Burst but look differently, and how the hunting rifles/bolts, tac/heavy shotguns, and pistols/silenced pistols also work the same way.

It would be nice if every weapon category had a different look for every rarity, like AR's could be grey AK-47, green M16, blue G36, purple M8, and golden Scar.

The burst could have a bullpup style and go grey QBZ-95, green AUG, blue IWI Tavor, purple SAR 21, golden Famas.

For silenced SMG they could do grey walther mp, green mp5, blue UMP. Tac SMG could be green uzi, blue mp7, purple P90.

They could do the same sort of thing for hunting rifles/bolt rifles, the pistols/silenced, and the tac/heavy shotguns. Most every other type of gun only comes in 2 or 3 rarities still so they don't really need to differentiate, although they could.

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16 minutes ago, James said:

And outside of obvious stuff I don't think I'm skilled enough to really comment on weapon balance. I can't snipe or pistol well enough to judge them, but I know a lot of people like the hunting rifles and double pistols.

Yeah I suck at sniping as well so I don't bother with them for the most part. I typically run some sort of SMG, some sort of shotgun, an AR/drumgun, then two healing items, but if I don't have those I will consider a silenced pistol in place of the smg, double pistols/deagle in place of a shotgun, an LMG or double pistols in place of an AR/drumgun, and a scoped AR/sniper, C4/grenades/stickies, or rockets/grenades to fill in one of my two healing slots if I don't have anything great.

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13 minutes ago, TXsteeler said:

Yeah I suck at sniping as well so I don't bother with them for the most part. I typically run some sort of SMG, some sort of shotgun, an AR/drumgun, then two healing items, but if I don't have those I will consider a silenced pistol in place of the smg, double pistols/deagle in place of a shotgun, an LMG or double pistols in place of an AR/drumgun, and a scoped AR/sniper, C4/grenades/stickies, or rockets/grenades to fill in one of my two healing slots if I don't have anything great.

That's pretty much what I do. I like to run some sort of explosive, but I'll usually go more heals/shields unless I can get a 6+ stack of nades/clingers. Impulse nades are fun to use but they feel kinda worthless now since you get pretty much the same effect from the bounce pads without having to use a slot.

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Pump shotguns suck right now.  They nerfed shotguns a few weeks ago and then now completely took out double pump.  Tac shotguns are wayyyyy better than pumps right now because you can just continually spray them non-stop.  They need to revert the damage nerf they gave pumps a while ago. 

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2 minutes ago, showtime said:

Pump shotguns suck right now.  They nerfed shotguns a few weeks ago and then now completely took out double pump.  Tac shotguns are wayyyyy better than pumps right now because you can just continually spray them non-stop.  They need to revert the damage nerf they gave pumps a while ago. 

Sounds like they took the Riot Games approach to balance. Nerf the champion, then two patches later nerf the items that made them need a nerf in the first place.

Although this does make me feel slightly better about almost losing with a green pump vs a pickaxe :$

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