Will Tom Brady Become The Greatest...

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, TheDILinator said:

Garoppolo  is somebody who looks like he has the potential to be a legit starter in the NFL, but in spite of all the hype surrounding him currently, after he led the Niners to a strong finish, his actual stats over those 6 games and 5 starts aren't that phenomenal.  

Actually he was pretty good considering the circumstances.

- Went to a brand new team during the middle of the season and learned a new system in which after a couple of weeks was asked to execute in a regular season game with new teammates he's barely had any reps with. 

- Dealt with a very lackluster supporting the cast. The 49ers interior offensive line is horrible. The run game is lackluster because of it. Marques Goodwin was the only decent receiving option. Everyone else is either a rookie or no one special. 

- Still averaged 300 yards passing per game in five starts considering those circumstances. 

- He didn't light world on fire in terms of touchdowns to interception ratio, but again considering who is he dragging to wins with the limited amount of time prepared to start, it's impressive. The only "bad game" he had was against the Rams when they played their backups, and he threw two interceptions in the game that were clearly on him. Still, it was a decent game overall. 

- His biggest flaw is his inability to deliver a solid ball down the field. Even with the lack of quality targets, his accuracy on those throws leaves a lot left to be desired. But how he moves in the pocket, avoids the rush like he has eyes in the back of his head combined with his release time is why a lot of 49ers fans are excited for next season. You really have to watch all of his games from start to finish to get a better idea on why he looks like a future star. Looking at just the stat line doesn't tell the entire story. 

All of that being said, I can completely understand the idea of not buying into the hype simply because of the limited sample size. No matter how good he's looked. Even if he looked like 1999 Warner in five starts, it's only five starts. 

[CP3MVP]

Tom doesn’t get compared to other guys at his position or in his sport anymore. It’s about him versus other all time greats in other sports 

[Non-Issue]

5 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Actually he was pretty good considering the circumstances.

- Went to a brand new team during the middle of the season and learned a new system in which after a couple of weeks was asked to execute in a regular season game with new teammates he's barely had any reps with. 

- Dealt with a very lackluster supporting the cast. The 49ers interior offensive line is horrible. The run game is lackluster because of it. Marques Goodwin was the only decent receiving option. Everyone else is either a rookie or no one special. 

- Still averaged 300 yards passing per game in five starts considering those circumstances. 

- He didn't light world on fire in terms of touchdowns to interception ratio, but again considering who is he dragging to wins with the limited amount of time prepared to start, it's impressive. The only "bad game" he had was against the Rams when they played their backups, and he threw two interceptions in the game that were clearly on him. Still, it was a decent game overall. 

- His biggest flaw is his inability to deliver a solid ball down the field. Even with the lack of quality targets, his accuracy on those throws leaves a lot left to be desired. But how he moves in the pocket, avoids the rush like he has eyes in the back of his head combined with his release time is why a lot of 49ers fans are excited for next season. You really have to watch all of his games from start to finish to get a better idea on why he looks like a future star. Looking at just the stat line doesn't tell the entire story. 

All of that being said, I can completely understand the idea of not buying into the hype simply because of the limited sample size. No matter how good he's looked. Even if he looked like 1999 Warner in five starts, it's only five starts. 

Yeah, you really cant look at the stat line without considering the context. This is a kid with like 3 starts to his name who went to a new team late in the season and hit the ground running. Even though the stats don't jump out at you, the kid hit the ground running and gave Niners fans (unfortunately) plenty of reasons to be excited about him.

[Non-Issue]

17 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

I think era and/or competition is probably a better argument. 

As for who Joe faced in the Super Bowl, those teams weren't crappy. The 1981 Bengals were a pretty good team all around with Kenny Anderson having an MVP year. The 1984 Dolphins were 14-2 with Dan Marino again having an MVP season. 1988 The Bengals had their best season ever with Boomer Esiason again as MVP. 1989 Broncos had a prime Elway, plus a great defense that year. Only two of those games the defense completely shut down. The Bengals in both 1981 and 1988 were competitive up until the 4th quarter. The 1988 team had a lead down to the last 32 seconds in the game. 

For the sake of comparison:
Brady has faced much tougher teams in the big game. No question.
Montana faced much better teams in the playoffs. No question.

So it's kind of a wash. One QB had a tougher climb getting to the big game. The other had a tougher climb to win the big game.

[Carmen Cygni]

4 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Tom doesn’t get compared to other guys at his position or in his sport anymore. It’s about him versus other all time greats in other sports 

Only by team accomplishment standards, and by those types of standards, football is the most difficult to adhere individual influence to.

Even a good handful of current QBs are on par with Brady, let alone all-greats.

 

If you want to compare individual achievements recently, LaGarette Blount has won 3 of the past 4 SBs.

RBwinz! FTW

[Non-Issue]

On ‎2‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 8:35 AM, ChazStandard said:

26 is an awful specific number, slightly odd choice, but fine. Here's how other great QBs stack up in the "defense gives up 26 points in the play-offs" stat:

Brady is actually 5-7, you miscounted, that equals a  0.42 win%

Peyton is 2-5 = 0.28

Montana is 1-4 = 0.20

Rodgers is 1-6 = 0.14

Elway is 1-6 = 0.14

Marino is 1-8 = 0.11

Favre is 1-9 = 0.10

Big Ben is 0-7...you don't need me to tell you that win %

To sum up, not only has Brady played in the most games where his defense gives up 26 points or more, he's also won the most and at a higher win %. In fact, he has as many play-off wins where his defense gives up 26+ points as Rodgers, Favre, Montana, Elway, Ben and Marino COMBINED.

EDIT: Some more names.

Staucbach was 1-4 (0.20)

Bradshaw was 1-3 (0.25)

Aikman was 0-4

Kelly was 1-6 (0.14)

Warner was 2-3 (0.40)

Brees was 3-4 (0.43)

 

flawless victory

[Carmen Cygni]

16 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

flawless victory

Nah, final scores are not indicative of what the defense gave up. ST's and defensive scores by the opposition, were counted against the defense in the situations posed above.

[ILoveTheVikings]

7 hours ago, TheDILinator said:

The Tom Brady GOAT talk is borderline insanity - and I'm a Mental Health Professional, so I know insanity when I see it!    

The guy is the Derek Jeter of the NFL, a very good - great even - player, who is probably the GOAT postseason player in his sport, and has won a bunch of Championships on a perennially good, and popular team.  That doesn't even come close to making him, or Jeter, the GOAT overall in their sport.  It's complete rose-colored glasses to see Brady as that, and ignores not only the incredibly average aspects of Brady's career, as well as insults the truly amazing exploits of other great QBs over the years.  

Here is the reality:  Brady is a system QB.  You take him off the Pats, and he's still a very good QB, but he's certainly not legendary, or getting discussed like he is, nor wearing 5 rings.  We know this (and all of you would know this if you're being honest with yourselves) because whenever some other QB is in Belicheck's "system", he looks similarly great.  Yet, when they leave that system (Matt Cassell, Jacoby Brissett, Ryan Mallett), their mediocrity becomes quite evident.  Garoppolo  is somebody who looks like he has the potential to be a legit starter in the NFL, but in spite of all the hype surrounding him currently, after he led the Niners to a strong finish, his actual stats over those 6 games and 5 starts aren't that phenomenal.  

Again, I'm NOT saying Brady isn't a great all time QB.  Just that saying he's the GOAT is shortsighted, and ignoring numerous flaws he's displayed over the years, and placing an overimportance on his postseason results.  Postseason QB GOAT?  Ok, that I can get behind.  But "all time, all time"?  No way!  Not even close in my opinion, and looking at the stats and utilizing the eye test.  Is he clutch?  Absolutely!  Maybe the most clutch QB of all time even (maybe - there's certainly other QBs like Elway that can be said about).  Again, he's very much like Jeter in that way.  But to just say he's the blanket "Best QB of all time" is laughable in my opinion. and from my informed perspective, and completely ignores the fact he's performed as he has in a very QB friendly system, under the tutelage of one of the best Coaches of all time.  

I'm sure I've already opened up a hornet's nest of ire, and I'll let you know up front I'm not going to get into an argument about this with anybody.  You're either willing to look at him outside the cliched box, or you're not.  I don't do argumentation on the internet.  I just wanted to throw this counterpoint out there.  However, I will up the ante on the ire, by saying that numerous times while watching the game the other night, particularly in the second half, Brady looked "old" in my opinion, having to wind up and heave almost every pass he made.  Heck, I hadn't seen such a labored effort to pass the football since - wait for it - Tim Tebow!    Thank goodness for Brady and the Patriots that the Eagles defenders were inexplicably so far off the Patriots receivers, that those lobbed passes didn't cause them trouble.  But again, that's the eye test, and not something any mainstream writer whose job it is to shill for the common narrative, is going to point out.  We're all supposed to fall in line and worship Brady as the GOAT, regardless of whether that really makes any sense from a broader vantage point.  

FWIW, I'm a fan of Michigan, and I think there's a lot to like about Brady.  Heck, I'd take him on any of my favorite teams anyday!  I even respect what he's accomplished over the years, from a neutral perspective.  As I've said, dude is as clutch, and as good in the postseason as they come!  But he's just not the GOAT, seriously...  I'd rather having Peyton Manning than him, just to name a recent QB.  He was no "system QB", as he proved winning Super Bowls, and finding success on multiple teams.  Maybe Brady could have done so too, but we'll never know...  And from where I'm sitting, just watching his play, he'd need a strong supporting cast, or a similar offensive system to Belicheck's, to find similar success.  

Ok, alternative viewpoint finished!  Feel free to rage now!    (Just know I'm not getting drawn into argumentation or debate about it.)

Quote

Here is the reality:  Brady is a system QB.

Oh my word. Talk about insanity.

[Wolverine_Joe]

7 hours ago, TheDILinator said:

The Tom Brady GOAT talk is borderline insanity - and I'm a Mental Health Professional, so I know insanity when I see it!    

The guy is the Derek Jeter of the NFL, a very good - great even - player, who is probably the GOAT postseason player in his sport, and has won a bunch of Championships on a perennially good, and popular team.  That doesn't even come close to making him, or Jeter, the GOAT overall in their sport.  It's complete rose-colored glasses to see Brady as that, and ignores not only the incredibly average aspects of Brady's career, as well as insults the truly amazing exploits of other great QBs over the years.  

Here is the reality:  Brady is a system QB.  You take him off the Pats, and he's still a very good QB, but he's certainly not legendary, or getting discussed like he is, nor wearing 5 rings.  We know this (and all of you would know this if you're being honest with yourselves) because whenever some other QB is in Belicheck's "system", he looks similarly great.  Yet, when they leave that system (Matt Cassell, Jacoby Brissett, Ryan Mallett), their mediocrity becomes quite evident.  Garoppolo  is somebody who looks like he has the potential to be a legit starter in the NFL, but in spite of all the hype surrounding him currently, after he led the Niners to a strong finish, his actual stats over those 6 games and 5 starts aren't that phenomenal.  

Again, I'm NOT saying Brady isn't a great all time QB.  Just that saying he's the GOAT is shortsighted, and ignoring numerous flaws he's displayed over the years, and placing an overimportance on his postseason results.  Postseason QB GOAT?  Ok, that I can get behind.  But "all time, all time"?  No way!  Not even close in my opinion, and looking at the stats and utilizing the eye test.  Is he clutch?  Absolutely!  Maybe the most clutch QB of all time even (maybe - there's certainly other QBs like Elway that can be said about).  Again, he's very much like Jeter in that way.  But to just say he's the blanket "Best QB of all time" is laughable in my opinion. and from my informed perspective, and completely ignores the fact he's performed as he has in a very QB friendly system, under the tutelage of one of the best Coaches of all time.  

I'm sure I've already opened up a hornet's nest of ire, and I'll let you know up front I'm not going to get into an argument about this with anybody.  You're either willing to look at him outside the cliched box, or you're not.  I don't do argumentation on the internet.  I just wanted to throw this counterpoint out there.  However, I will up the ante on the ire, by saying that numerous times while watching the game the other night, particularly in the second half, Brady looked "old" in my opinion, having to wind up and heave almost every pass he made.  Heck, I hadn't seen such a labored effort to pass the football since - wait for it - Tim Tebow!    Thank goodness for Brady and the Patriots that the Eagles defenders were inexplicably so far off the Patriots receivers, that those lobbed passes didn't cause them trouble.  But again, that's the eye test, and not something any mainstream writer whose job it is to shill for the common narrative, is going to point out.  We're all supposed to fall in line and worship Brady as the GOAT, regardless of whether that really makes any sense from a broader vantage point.  

FWIW, I'm a fan of Michigan, and I think there's a lot to like about Brady.  Heck, I'd take him on any of my favorite teams anyday!  I even respect what he's accomplished over the years, from a neutral perspective.  As I've said, dude is as clutch, and as good in the postseason as they come!  But he's just not the GOAT, seriously...  I'd rather having Peyton Manning than him, just to name a recent QB.  He was no "system QB", as he proved winning Super Bowls, and finding success on multiple teams.  Maybe Brady could have done so too, but we'll never know...  And from where I'm sitting, just watching his play, he'd need a strong supporting cast, or a similar offensive system to Belicheck's, to find similar success.  

Ok, alternative viewpoint finished!  Feel free to rage now!    (Just know I'm not getting drawn into argumentation or debate about it.)

 

what did ryan mallett and jacoby brissett for the pats?    and garappolo looks so good that he is about to land a max contract.

 

and you can't possibly be a michigan fan.  no way.  not possible.

 

 

[CP3MVP]

4 hours ago, Carmen Cygni said:

Only by team accomplishment standards, and by those types of standards, football is the most difficult to adhere individual influence to.

Even a good handful of current QBs are on par with Brady, let alone all-greats.

 

If you want to compare individual achievements recently, LaGarette Blount has won 3 of the past 4 SBs.

RBwinz! FTW

Brady has the best combination of

Individual stats both of the traditional and advanced(Both bulk and efficiency)+Team Success in both the regular season and postseason and Longevity 

That’s why he’s considered the greatest. It’s not just one thing. No one sees Aikman or Bradshaw as goats and they have 7 rings combined 

[Carmen Cygni]

3 hours ago, CP3MVP said:

Brady has the best combination of

Individual stats both of the traditional and advanced(Both bulk and efficiency)+Team Success in both the regular season and postseason and Longevity 

That’s why he’s considered the greatest. It’s not just one thing. No one sees Aikman or Bradshaw as goats and they have 7 rings combined 

That was kinda my point.

[CKSteeler]

18 hours ago, lancerman said:

It's not difficult to build a lead when your defense holds your opponent to 16, 16, and 10 in your last 3 Super  Brady would have won nearly ever Super Bowls. 

Also let me refer you to Super Bowl XXIII where Joe Montana put up a whopping 3 points in the first half. Oh and went into the 4th quarter with 6 points on the board. And then needed a little thing called "the drive" at the end of the game to overcome the massive 16 points the Bengals put up. So no you're wrong. 

Anybody whose ever watched Montana's Super Bowls knows he NEVER had to deal with a team doing anything like what happened last night. He'd be 0-4 if his defense put up that performance. And if you think otherwise, I have to question if you even watched those games. Despite popular opinion, Montana's defenses kept all those games in check for him. Brady's performance last night would make him 4-0 against the teams Montana played.

How many posts are we going to go through of you ignoring the actual arguments I make to just regurgitate the same nonsense over and over again? You want to cite point allowed stats as if they happen in a bubble. Tom Brady was great on Sunday! Besides that his offense only scored 9 first half points and went into the half down by a touchdown. Let's ignore the game circumstances and pretend that an offense that is allowed to use it's full playbook isn't more dangerous than one down multiple scores by half time.

The worst first half performance from a Pats defense was against Atlanta according to your argument. And Brady's offense contributed mightily to half the points actually allowed. A quarter came directly from Brady making a really poor decision that went for a pick-6. Then we can ignore how Brady's defense didn't allow a single second half point while the offense dug itself out of it a hole that it played a large part in creating.

You want to pretend that points allowed purely reflects on a defense. You want to ignore that Tom Brady's offenses have, for whatever reason, always struggled to score early while Montana and his offense managed to rack up points quickly and early. It's a joke of an argument.

[Non-Issue]

On 2/6/2018 at 12:44 PM, Carmen Cygni said:

Only by team accomplishment standards, and by those types of standards, football is the most difficult to adhere individual influence to.

Even a good handful of current QBs are on par with Brady, let alone all-greats.

 

If you want to compare individual achievements recently, LaGarette Blount has won 3 of the past 4 SBs.

RBwinz! FTW

Are we counting regular season MVPs, Superbowl MVPs, pro bowls, all pros, regular season/post season/superbowl passing records, top 5 showings in every significant passing statistic, and all the other awards that come with all that (OPOY, CPOY, Bet Bell Award) strictly as "team accomplishments" now? Or were you just being reductive for the sake of...?

[Non-Issue]

On 2/6/2018 at 1:09 PM, Carmen Cygni said:

Nah, final scores are not indicative of what the defense gave up. ST's and defensive scores by the opposition, were counted against the defense in the situations posed above.

But were accounted for in Bradys case?

[Carmen Cygni]

3 minutes ago, Non-Issue said:

Are we counting regular season MVPs, Superbowl MVPs, pro bowls, all pros, regular season/post season/superbowl passing records, top 5 showings in every significant passing statistic, and all the other awards that come with all that (OPOY, CPOY, Bet Bell Award) strictly as "team accomplishments" now? Or were you just being reductive for the sake of...?

Those awards mean diddly. Case & point: Doug Pederson received one vote for Coach of the Year.