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The Future of This Franchise (Coaching Staff Debate)


steelcurtain29

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8 minutes ago, Alex said:

The Steelers screwed up by not picking up more veteran defensive players. We needed that for the playoff run. No, Harrison wasn't going to be that guy, Joe Haden was a right step in the direction. We need at least two more. James Farrior made this defense for what it was mainly because he understood the defense and can make calls when in doubt. 

 

This means possibly getting a player that would be tad too slow for our defense yet we would be more effective in that regards. Got to eat our poison. 

 

It's why I am not a fan of drafting a linebacker, that guy WON'T solve our communication issue and Mike Mitchell proved what an useless he is and at providing the leadership. I know people would say we should talk about what to do with Hargrave; I disagree. We should be discussing what we can do with Tuitt, what can we get for him. Hargrave is a perfect DT for the 4-3 and this defense look like it can be legitimate a 4-3 defense. 

 

Honestly, people bashed me for saying I want Vea, but now that idea is looking like it's really not a bad idea.

Besides Hargrave, there isn't one player that is BETTER suited to play in the 4-3 imo. 

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Not that I'm actually expecting a change but there seems to be pressure on the ownership to make a head coaching change. For 3 I'm not saying he would be better but stuff onto it is very capable of playing defensive tackle in the 4-3 defense considering he did sell at Notre Dame. I do not believe that the issue is Tomlin now don't get me wrong I'm not absolving him of orgill because in situational football he absolutely must make better decisions but I also think that he is hanging on to his assistant coaches for too long and I think that is where change is needed

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For the crackerjack clown who we call as Head Coach, I'm going straight controversy, but helluva coach, and I know you hate him and his brother, but I think it enhances the rivalry with the Ravens and we pay the $1.14m buyout...... Jim Harbaugh. You need a splash play as the clown might say. That's how you prevent yourself from hiring 30 Head Coaches like the Browns. (backup plan David Shaw)

This should be a little more palatable and you just nod. Jack Del Rio as DC

You'll question this one and it's maybe out there but Rod Woodson for DB coach. I've listened to Rod and he's motivational and knows more about the position than say a college LB. Question is would he leave Oakland after getting promoted to Pittsburgh. More money factor? Maybe he follows Del Rio.

When building a staff. Familiarity is key. Ben loves Bruce Arians. Watch his Football Life. You might like him as well when you get to know the man. And not yell at the TV for throwing the ball deep on 4th & 1.

I'm not sure why he has lasted this long. But I do love hearing him speak. The defensive line had no push whatsoever. John Mitchell must go and if Rod Marinelli who is widely regarded as the best DL coach in the league comes available he would be my replacement.

Hines Ward as WR coach. Just throwing it out there bc Mann might retire. He has to know something if a guy with no ACL's can get open on 3rd down every single time

Merril Hoge as RB coach. I happen to love Merrill and he's a football guy who will provide leadership in the locker room, knowledge in preparation in breaking down tape, and helping the RB room.

Troy Polamalu assistant DB coach. We need an assistant here and Troy can help the guys see the game like him. Not too mention being a great guy in the locker room. You must understand this locker room suffers because a lack of good guys and comprised of YES, MEN.

Mike Munchak stays on as OL coach. Receives a raise and is given Asst HC

Joey Porter obviously doesn't know the first thing about coaching. He's a player, not a player-coach. Some guys can do both. He was just one mean SOB. Have you heard of Kevin Greene? LB Coach. Kevin Greene is a leader and is one of those player-coaches. Shouldn't be that hard to pry him from the Jets.

Mike Mularkey. TE coach. Talk about a fall from grace. Short-term move here and he gets a job with his old team. 

Randy Fichtner remains as QB coach

 

All I'm saying is change needs to happen. This isn't a that'll never happen debate. That doesn't need debated. This is what I THINK should happen. This team underachieves because a lack of leadership and discipline. We never replaced the leadership in the locker room. The players ran the locker room but after Farrior, Ward, Bettis, Hartings, etc left there has been a void that the team has yet to replace. You replace that with coaching. That's their job. This staff has leaders and the most prominent men at their position. If you want to take the next step this offesason, getting better players won't do that, we're already the most talented team in the NFL. You saw that with the what 5 or 6 best plays in the playoffs coming from one team in one game. This team will continue to suffer under the tutelage of Coach Tomlin, Keith Butler, and Todd Haley. They must all go. The players aren't the problem. Art Rooney II MUST SEE this team is a Super Bowl team on paper. When I looked at the roster when they cut Harrison, it was actually the move because this team is littered with talent. This is the most talented Steelers team I HAVE EVER SEEN. 

Changes must be made or history will repeat itself

 

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2 hours ago, Alex said:

The Steelers screwed up by not picking up more veteran defensive players. We needed that for the playoff run. No, Harrison wasn't going to be that guy, Joe Haden was a right step in the direction. We need at least two more. James Farrior made this defense for what it was mainly because he understood the defense and can make calls when in doubt. 

 

This means possibly getting a player that would be tad too slow for our defense yet we would be more effective in that regards. Got to eat our poison. 

 

It's why I am not a fan of drafting a linebacker, that guy WON'T solve our communication issue and Mike Mitchell proved what an useless he is and at providing the leadership. I know people would say we should talk about what to do with Hargrave; I disagree. We should be discussing what we can do with Tuitt, what can we get for him. Hargrave is a perfect DT for the 4-3 and this defense look like it can be legitimate a 4-3 defense. 

 

Honestly, people bashed me for saying I want Vea, but now that idea is looking like it's really not a bad idea.

and the only reason we got Haden was because the Browns are of the 0-16 type of FO. We got lucky there and colbert deserves credit for making this happen. 

On board with a vet ILB similar to Farrior. Get a proven leader with skills. 

So you want to trade Tuitt? I was thinking he would be DT with Hargrave in a 4 man front. Hargrave isn't a NT, that is for sure at least vs the run he is terrible and probably why we never played him much.

 

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14 hours ago, steelcurtain29 said:

So what do do about Hargrave? Trade him? Rotate him at DE? 

If they can trade him but I doubt it. I would rather go to a 4-3 anyways since Watt is our only OLB that is of starter quality. Chickillo I want to do well, but not starter quality at this time. Why stay with 3-4 if we are really lacking the OLB's? We have lots of  DL though. Make sense?  

Hargrave isn't good vs the run as a NT.  

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6 hours ago, Blitzburgh said:

I’m not sure I like the fit of Heyward and Tuitt at 4-3 DE.  I could see one of them playing LE, but I would prefer a more explosive DE who can run the arch at RE.  

I could see one at 3-tech and one at LE.  However that leads to another question of what you do with Hargrave.  

I think Hargrave’s fit will continue to come into question.  However,  is it Hargrave or bad ILBs?  I really struggle with this.  Do we need a more traditional NT like Vita Vea or do we just need an upgrade at ILB. 

Heck,  I actually wonder if we need to focus more on players who can tackle like in the past.  I’m sure there is a statistic out there , but I would be willing to bet the Steelers have one of the highest missed tackle percentages in the NFL.

Tuitt would be DT, Heyward at LDE. Speed at RDE, Ansah for example .

Hargrave would be DT too and if he fails then trade him as it's a wast to have higher draft picks sit on the sidelines.  Hargrave wasn't good vs the run but does well with aggressive pass rush from the limited snaps I saw.  He isn't the classic 0 tech NT, something maybe the team should consider when drafting. We have too many players on the front that could benefit from a different scheme, why not get players that suit this scheme or make a scheme that suits the players we have already ? This could come down to the draft and who is available.

As for getting a tradition NT, it could work, but we still need OLB's.  Watt is a starter but dupree isn't and we have no depth. Do we keep  trying to run the 3-4 without a NT and only 1 starting OLB? What if one or both get hurt :S

The tackling is bad IMO, but the league as a whole has become watered down in this area .  That walk off play for the vikes, that guy is doing what is common in the modern nfl. Tackling is nothing like it was .  You hardly ever saw a moving pile of players like rugby because they got hit and went down and if they didn't there was someone else right there ready to KO the player.  Players also don't fly to the ball carrier either, they jog and see that a teammate nearby will get there.  To me that is coaching and lazy players. The new flag league is what we have now.  But I like how you noticed this, and a new HC should put emphasis on this. 

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42 minutes ago, Money said:

For the crackerjack clown who we call as Head Coach, I'm going straight controversy, but helluva coach, and I know you hate him and his brother, but I think it enhances the rivalry with the Ravens and we pay the $1.14m buyout...... Jim Harbaugh. You need a splash play as the clown might say. That's how you prevent yourself from hiring 30 Head Coaches like the Browns. (backup plan David Shaw)

another way to prevent hiring 30 coaches is have the  most talented team in the NFL, with 3 HOF players on offence "skill positions" and add to that 3 pro bowl OL. That will make nay coach look competent won't it :$

 

43 minutes ago, Money said:

This should be a little more palatable and you just nod. Jack Del Rio as DC

it wouldn't bother me as long as they decide on a scheme and get the players. Just as above , we got players and anyone could do well, but without (browns) good luck. This team has survived too much on talent and been held back by coaching . Woodson would be great IMO but I doubt he leaves oakland but who knows. 

 

46 minutes ago, Money said:

I'm not sure why he has lasted this long. But I do love hearing him speak. The defensive line had no push whatsoever. John Mitchell must go and if Rod Marinelli who is widely regarded as the best DL coach in the league comes available he would be my replacement.

sure, we need a scheme change and a coach change there IMO.

 

47 minutes ago, Money said:

Mike Munchak stays on as OL coach. Receives a raise and is given Asst HC

If this will work. He might want out of here, remember he is HOF player and the BS that goes on here probably is enough to make him leave even for less $.  Everyone here wants him to stay, we can't allow the OL to go back to what it was or near that especially if the D continues to slide.

 

49 minutes ago, Money said:

Joey Porter obviously doesn't know the first thing about coaching. He's a player, not a player-coach. Some guys can do both. He was just one mean SOB. Have you heard of Kevin Greene? LB Coach. Kevin Greene is a leader and is one of those player-coaches. Shouldn't be that hard to pry him from the Jets.

For sure a good move, but will this happen? 

With all the changes you mention, might as well get a new HC. I can't remember a team keeping a HC yet having near this much change. Like your choices though and we all agree that this team needs to make changes.

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I have a buddy who was a scout and now a college coach who is very good friends with a  former rbs coach for us. He told me that to his knowledge the steelers would not consider a change to a 4-3 because they had 30 years of developing a top to bottom 3-4 organization. If the team were to consider it we would be overhauling a large chunk of our scouting team to coaching and training staff. I did not have this conversation directly with the steelers coach but my buddy has never led me to believe he has lied on other conversations of this nature over the last 15 years. Take that  for what  its worth when planning out a switch to a new defense.

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3 hours ago, Big Snack said:

I have a buddy who was a scout and now a college coach who is very good friends with a  former rbs coach for us. He told me that to his knowledge the steelers would not consider a change to a 4-3 because they had 30 years of developing a top to bottom 3-4 organization. If the team were to consider it we would be overhauling a large chunk of our scouting team to coaching and training staff. I did not have this conversation directly with the steelers coach but my buddy has never led me to believe he has lied on other conversations of this nature over the last 15 years. Take that  for what  its worth when planning out a switch to a new defense.

I don't think people really know how scouting works.  I would bet you know, but in case others don't how scouting works and why it takes so long for those changes to take effect:

LOWEST LEVEL - LOCAL REGIONAL SCOUTS

Nowadays most of this is done by 3rd party groups, but these are the guys that are set to a certain region.  Like there might be 1 guy assigned from the Steelers to eastern PA/NJ/NY.  They go to DI/DII/DIA games in that area.  They are really only looking at one or two guys per game on the field with specific skillsets.  

These guys have already finished their 2018 draft scouting and are already working on 2019 and 2020

An example from the Steelers, some local scout was at a South Carolina State University, saw Hargrave show traits that the Steelers like in a DL.  So he passes that on to:

HEAD OF REGIONAL SCOUTING

Head of regional scouting moves around to pick up a game or two.  The difference from local regional scouts is the head of regional scouting is going to games based on the local regional scouts recommendation.

For the most part this guy is done with 2018 draft, has started on the 2019 draft

An example of this from the Steelers would be the local scout or 3rd party group had a writeup on Hargrave, and the head regional scout saw enough on paper that he liked so he went to a game.

TEAM SCOUT

Team scouts work out of the team offices in Pittsburgh but they travel a lot.  Usually they specialize in one position.  So there may be 5-10 guys who just do defensive line scouting.

They have mostly wrapped up the 2018 draft, but are still advising on it.

POSITIONAL SCOUT

We're getting closer to where we are at the top now.  This is the head of scouting for certain positions.  They report to the head scout, GM, and positional coaches.  They tend to work closely to the positional coach.

They are still in deep on the 2018 draft and haven't started on the 2019 draft yet.

HEAD SCOUT

The head scout takes the positional scout reports, and along with them he uses it to build the draft board.

This is about when Colbert and Tomlin really get involved.  Colbert has been involved all along, now that we're out of the season Tomlin is really getting involved.  At this point all the players that would fit this team, what they are looking for, and who they want to possibly bring in have been narrowed down.  Now their job is to talk, split hairs between these players, put the importance of positional values and rounds all together.  That helps them eliminate some of the confusion off the top.

 

Effectively this whole point is to show how much would have to change and how long it would take switching from a 3-4 to a 4-3 would take from a draft perspective.

Heck look at changing from zone to man.  It was talked about almost 4 years ago and we're just now starting to see guys like Hilton, Burns, Sutton, Allen make their way onto the tea.  That's how long it takes for these changes.  Then on top of that you've got the coaching to need to catch up on the matter and starting to coach on the style that needs to happen.

The easier part at this point for a team wanting to go hybrid-man would be to bring in coaches who will coach man, and a guy who played DE/OLB as a hybrid to coach our pass rushers, and have them duo coach between the new rush coach and Coach O.

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The key is that John Mitchell has coached 2-gap very well.  Hybrid needs 2 DTs to play 2-gap in the middle.  That is the difference from from 3-4.  So the coach and the scouts are already there.  LBs in a hybrid are like the ones in the 3-4.

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35 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think Danny Smith has cooled his seat a bit. I really like what he's done. The returns aren't great but the coverage teams have improved under him. At least just to my eye. I haven't looked at any stats. 

The best I can get is starting field position, yes this factors in defense, but it gives a good feel of how our return team does:

2017 - own 29

2016 - own 27

2015 - own 28

2014 - own 26

2013 - own 30

2012 (pre-smith) - own 27

2011 (pre smith) - own 27

2010 (pre smith) - own 32

 

Net punt yards:

2017 - 43

2016 - 45

2015 - 42

2014 - 43

2013 - 41

2012 (pre-smith) - 43

2011 (pre smith) - 45

2010 (pre smith) - 44

 

So we're not much worse, but a little worse than pre-Danny Smith in terms of coverage IMO.  We see the last two years in terms of net punt yards take an uptick, and I think that's more Berry than the actual coverage.  Effectively he's not good or bad...he just is.

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42 minutes ago, MOSteelers56 said:

I think Danny Smith has cooled his seat a bit. I really like what he's done. The returns aren't great but the coverage teams have improved under him. At least just to my eye. I haven't looked at any stats. 

And it seems like there were more blocks of punts and field goals this season then before.

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4 minutes ago, jebrick said:

The key is that John Mitchell has coached 2-gap very well.  Hybrid needs 2 DTs to play 2-gap in the middle.  That is the difference from from 3-4.  So the coach and the scouts are already there.  LBs in a hybrid are like the ones in the 3-4.

Again it's not that easy.  Hybrid DE/OLB's play a little different.  Looking for different players.  You don't really need a hybrid LB, you need a guy that's more one or the other.  It's not as easy as DT's that can 2 gap in the middle or they would do that with Tuitt and Heyward since they can both 2 gap.  If you want to go to this you need a guy that can 0T, 1T, and 3T.  We don't have that. You need a guy that can 3T, 5T, and 7T.  We have that in Heyward.  You need a guy that's a 5T, 7T, 9T.  We don't have that.  We need a 7T and 9T hybrid.  We kinda have that in Dupree.  We need a guy that can play the 9T, SAM.  We might have that in Watt.  We need a Mack/Mike.  We don't have that.  We need a Will/Buck.  We don't have that.

 

I'm up to 5 guys in a front 7 we would need.  

 

Not to mention that we would also need the rotational guys, a few 'one trick pony' guys, a safety/lb hybrid type player.

 

So I'm going to stick with not as easy as you think.  Getting 2 new ILB's and a new FS could do just as much if not more for our defense by staying with our common style.

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I think you are incorrect. The Steelers need a solid 2-gap DT.  This this draft that is Tim Settle or Vita Vea. If you want to go FA you have Star Lotulelei or Stephen Paea  They can use Tuitt as the other 2 gap.  Heyward can play 1 gap LDE and Dupree or Watt can play 7 tech.  Not perfect but not as bad as you think

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