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AFC CHAMPIONSHIP GAME: Jacksonville Jaguars #3 @ New England Patriots #1: Bortles vs. Brady


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1 minute ago, iPwn said:

Hold on just a sec. What do you think I meant with this whole optics thing? We can go back to the other stuff after we get this sorted out, but the way you’re stating this, I think there may be a large misunderstanding in what I meant by the optics.

In Gen and ITT, you’ve gone off on the officiating of this game. You’ve presented an argument that the “optics” of it is bad, and that that’s just how everyone sees it, not necessarily (just?) you yourself. Yet somehow through all of the missed penalties, you’ve only managed to post the Jags examples. 

That’s why Murts is poking fun at you right now. Because you keep saying that you aren’t/haven’t taken any firm stances (that the Jags got jobbed or anything along those lines) but you have continually made posts that are arguments for the Jags indeed getting jobbed. You’ve made a plethora of posts, lambasting the referees for their improper officiating, but only posted Jags examples. Then when someone calls you out on it, you just say that that’s just how other people are perceiving things and that you never technically claimed that stance as your own. 

Non-Issue brought it up in that thread too. Post a bunch of examples of the Jaguars getting jobbed, someone calls you out, you respond with “I’m not saying the Jags should’ve won, it’s just the optics”. You talk about how bad the refs were and then only post examples of the Patriots doing this or that. 

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1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

In Gen and ITT, you’ve gone off on the officiating of this game. You’ve presented an argument that the “optics” of it is bad, and that that’s just how everyone sees it, not necessarily (just?) you yourself. Yet somehow through all of the missed penalties, you’ve only managed to post the Jags examples. 

That’s why Murts is poking fun at you right now. Because you keep saying that you aren’t/haven’t taken any firm stances (that the Jags got jobbed or anything along those lines) but you have continually made posts that are arguments for the Jags indeed getting jobbed. You’ve made a plethora of posts, lambasting the referees for their improper officiating, but only posted Jags examples. Then when someone calls you out on it, you just say that that’s just how other people are perceiving things and that you never technically claimed that stance as your own. 

Non-Issue brought it up in that thread too. Post a bunch of examples of the Jaguars getting jobbed, someone calls you out, you respond with “I’m not saying the Jags should’ve won, it’s just the optics”. You talk about how bad the refs were and then only post examples of the Patriots doing this or that. 

Okay, so maybe we need to better explain this.

Every game, one team wins and one team loses. There’s reasons for these losses. The perception by a whole lot of fans is that a significant portion of these games are decided because one team didn’t get calls in their favor. Sometimes it’s true, sometimes it isn’t. But fans have seen referees make so many mistakes over the years that any time they do, they’ve effectively been conditioned to view those as major turning points in a game. They don’t have to be, but any time a close game happens, focus is drawn to those calls. We see this in so many GDT. 100 page threads about the GB/Seattle “Fail Mary”, “Dez caught it” “Tuck Rule” and so forth. This is what I meant by optics. Attention draws away from the players and gets focused on the mistakes the refs make. It happens all the time. 

 

 

The posting of the examples of Jaguars plays was in direct response to this underlying claim being attacked. It was suggested, from the very first moment of that initial claim, that there was not a single play that the Jags didn’t get that they should have and that there was nothing in reality that could have driven people to suggest that the Pats got lucky on certain calls. I didn’t post plays that the Pats didn’t get because that was never in question. Jaguars fans - even during the game - admitted that the Bouye/Ramsey play was DPI, they admitted at least 3 other plays were penalties. No one ever questioned any of them. Post a penalty the Jags committed; “yep, that’s a penalty”. The only disagreement that penalties were committed that didn’t go the right way was from those claiming that the Pats had zero penalties simply because they’re disciplined and that no penalties actually occurred.

And the fact that the losing team commits penalties that don’t get called doesn’t change the perception that people have. The refs either “screwed the team that lost,” or they “let the big ticket team back into the game”. That’s what people think happens all the time. No one talks about how the little guy lost and only lost by 10 because the refs screwed the big guy. Doesn’t mean that the calls went the way the public perceives they did every time someone thinks it does, doesn’t even mean that it has even happened once. But fans think it does. It’s a problem that this is what people focus on. 

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I broke down the Lee facemask/horse collar and figured I would post it here because it took so much effort.

 

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Initial point of contact. See how Lee’s Jersey has no distortion of his name from being bunched up?

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You can barely notice the movement of the collar at this point, but note that the downward pull has begun to bunch up the second E.

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As the tackle continues, we can begin to see the first E distorting more than in the previous frame due to bunching. We can also begin to see significant downward pull of the collar, exposing Lee’s neck to our line of sight.

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This is an enlarged section of the above screenshot. We can see Butler’s fingers turned inward inside the collar, clearly grasping inside the collar. 

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As the tackle progresses, Butler continues to pull downward on Lee’s jersey the pull down as become so pronounced that the L has begun to distort.

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This is an enlarged section of the above photo. From here, while too blurry to tell with absolute certainty, it seems pretty evident that Butler’s index finger is still grasped around the collar.

While we are here, also note the placement of Lee’s helmet. The facemask has driven downward, while the back of the helmet has now risen to expose not only Lee’s neck, but the base of his head.

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This is a mark up of the above photo, showing what still appears to be Butler’s finger grasped around the collar. Also - it is important to remember that a player cannot “grab the jersey at the name plate or above” while pulling a player down. Even if this is not exactly the collar, Butler has clearly grabbed at or above the nameplate, as his hand completely obstructs the view of the second E.

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Note that as the tackle is completed, Lee’s collar now is moving downward and now further right, the direction of Butler’s hand. Note that even though a near full tackle has been completed, Butler’s hand has barely moved. In addition, continue to note that Lee’s facemask has appeared to pull down further from the last frame.

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This is an enlargement of the above. Note Butler’s hand is still in a grasp.

 

Now let’s look at a different camera angle.

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This is prior to contact with the face being made. Note how far Lee’s facemask and visor stick out in front of his helmet.

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We can now no longer see any Lee’s facemask or visor. Butler has clearly made contact with the facemask. This - itself - is not a penalty. Note the position of Butler’s hand - the bottom of  his glove is very high up vs the numbers on the front of Lee’s jersey, while his fingertips reside just below the brand plate above the face opening of the helmet

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Now we begin to see Lee’s facemask being pulled down. Note the new position of Butler’s glove. The wrist area on the glove is now lower than the top of the name on the front of Lee’s jersey. Note we can still not see Lee’s facemask nor his visor. Not that the top of Butler’s hand has barely moved relative to the brand plate. The relation of the top of his hand to the brand plate not changing while the positioning of the wrist his indicates that Butler’s hand has pulled Lee’s face downward.

In addition, note on the back hand we can clearly see Butler’s hand grasping the collar/upper nameplate area. 

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Here is a later snapshot. Note the head of Lee has pulled further inward. Also note the stretching of the collar area.

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This is an enlarged section of above. Note that we can clearly see Butler’s fingers wrapped around the facemask. Note that we can also see that on the back, both the index finger and middle finger are grasping the back, as they are much shorter than the other fingers.

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From beginning to end. The back nameplate clearly grasped and pulled down. The facemask clearly grasped and pulled down.

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  • 2 weeks later...
5 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

Who is that guy? Why should we believe him?

I mean, i have no idea who that is or if they should be trusted...

 

But i also know that having watched that game (multiple times now) in addition to seeing so many of the plays presented in other forms from various angles and whatnot...it's impossible to conceive of a sane honest football person with two functioning eyes and even a basic grasp of the rulebook, coming away from that watching with any conclusion other than that one (that many penalties were missed in a completely unevenly called game).

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6 hours ago, Tugboat said:

I mean, i have no idea who that is or if they should be trusted...

 

But i also know that having watched that game (multiple times now) in addition to seeing so many of the plays presented in other forms from various angles and whatnot...it's impossible to conceive of a sane honest football person with two functioning eyes and even a basic grasp of the rulebook, coming away from that watching with any conclusion other than that one (that many penalties were missed in a completely unevenly called game).

If you go to the Pats forum you will see several calls that went against them as well. The fact the league admits it was wrong is of little comfort to me now. There arent any repercussions 

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12 hours ago, JaguarCrazy2832 said:

If you go to the Pats forum you will see several calls that went against them as well. The fact the league admits it was wrong is of little comfort to me now. There arent any repercussions 

well if the NFL had a Minor League Football division any ref crew who misses/makes say 7 incorrect calls should be sent down to the minors but i woulod settle for the Ref crews being fined a Game check or something to put them on notice.

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11 hours ago, LinderFournette said:

well if the NFL had a Minor League Football division any ref crew who misses/makes say 7 incorrect calls should be sent down to the minors but i woulod settle for the Ref crews being fined a Game check or something to put them on notice.

I’m all for it but until it happens its of no help to us

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