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Hue Vs Sashi! Who Deserved to be fired?


brownie man

Who Deserved to be fired?!  

15 members have voted

  1. 1. Who should have been fired?

    • Hue
      11
    • Sashi
      4


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I love what Sachi did and I think he will be an amazing GM. I think he could be like losing Billichick for us. 

that said he wasn't faultless. He has passed on 3 QB's that have preformed at a high level. Wentz, Dak, and Watson. He may have been listening to Hue about these picks, but nonetheless it happened  and we can't take it back. Missing on a QB is like seeing someones junk. once it has happened it never uphappens. It is burned into your mind forever. like a tattoo. 

He has set us up briliatnly for the next 5 years and if we start winning it will be because of him to a large degree. 

Hue has shown varying levels of incompetence in lots of ways. Our QB guru has lead us to historic levels of poor play at the positions. thats a thing on Hue. 
He has been terrible at clock management.  His game plan has been variable, from good to absurd at times. 

One thing that strongly stands in his favor though, the team plays hard each week. that is pretty cool.  

But it turns out Hue is a D bag who throws peopel under the bus. Horon, kirby, Sachi, Lee.

Hue don't got your back,
but he will step on your neck. 
Hue is a big goon. 

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@brownie man

Are you serious man?

Just trying to get a rise out of people...gaslighting them...lol.

I'll save you time...this thread will be the same as the fire Hue thread...

99.999999% of people on this forum think the exact same crystal clear thing; that is, everyone hates Hue, thinks he's the worst coach in NFL history, believes he never called a good game, believes all he does is throw players under the bus, believes that he never takes responsibility ever, and his offensive scheming makes no sense, and he's a joke.

As if you haven't been on this forum enough to know what everyone thinks on this topic.

I'm taking the over on 40 on the times Hueball and Huebris will be used in this thread.

I have a lot of criticism of Hue and Sashi, but ultimately focus on the context of their work and see things a little differently when it comes to evaluating the goods and bads of their time with the Browns.

-------------------------------------------------------

On Sashi:

 

There are a few major things many seem to overlook when it comes to Sashi:

1. Sashi was not necessarily fired, but upgraded on by a person with recent rebuilding experience of a team without a QB to go from losing to sustained winning with a QB in the playoffs.

2. John Dorsey was a better gamble to properly utilize the materials and resources (draft capital, FA money, etc...) to make prudent decisions for the rebuild.

3. Sashi had no team building or scouting experience, but was brilliant enough to know what he didn't know, rely on the consensus of experts, and make disciplined judgments based on the gathering of all relevant information. This got him far and allowed him to make many sound decisions based on the wisdom and risk aversion of consensus.

4. Our personnel department had no one with expertise in the multi-dimensional aspects of roster building as a lead decision maker (i.e., Did Andrew Berry have that experience? No...Paul DePo?...No. Chisholm Opara? No......Ken Kovach?...No....Bobby Vega? No....Sashi Brown? No... As a result, it was necessary to upgrade the Personnel department to effectively prepare for the major rebuilding most important offseason in Browns history.

5. A 2016, 1-15 team that preseason was thought to go 0-16 due to roster issues cannot Subtract Joe Haden (Leader), Demario Davis (Leader), Terrelle Pryor (1000 yard receiver), then ADD Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Calvin Pryor, JC Tretter, Kevin Zeitler, 7 rookie starters, and expect that 1-15 team to be better especially when starting the youngest QB in the league who was a 2nd round pick who struggled in college his final year and was never ready to play.

6. Sashi drafted 43 defensive skill set players to play the 34 w/ Ray Horton showing a lack in understanding of roster building. One of the major overlooked issues in his tenure was the decision to draft and/or rely on whatever consensus there was for Emmanuel Ogbah, Joe Schobert, and Carl Nassib,

  • These selections showed that key decision makers and Sashi did not get that a critical aspect of roster building is drafting to the scheme and utilization plans of the coaches. On no planet are Ogbah, Schobert, and Nassib 34 defense players. In fact, their selections forced Ray Horton (his issues in coaching aside) to run a 43 scheme (also not Shelton's best scheme). This caused confusion and cognitive burden on players going from scheme to scheme (In the same year, Ogbah played 5tech 34 DE. 34 OLB, and 43 DE).
  • While not a fatal error, a seasoned GM does not make those decisions and that those decisions were made at the time (they make sense now given we are in the 43), it did show a lack of knowledge in basic fundamentals of roster building

6. The Roster architect needed to build the roster in this stage of the rebuild needs expertise outside of Sashi's skill set.

  • (re)Building a roster is a lot like building a building. The re-build proceeds in stages with each stage requiring different tools, resources, knowledge, planning, and organization of workers.
  • Sashi was amazing and a master at one major component of the build: Tearing down what previously existed to start anew, making deals to acquire extra materials for a successful build in the future, and cutting cost to increase available money for the build.
  • The thing is THAT's NOT ALL that there is to building a roster and being an elite/successful GM. One has to know how to evaluate impact talent in FA, be able to not just defer to expert opinions on QBs, has to be able to properly evaluate, challenge, and grow the scouts/personnel staff, understand the complexities of roster building, and most importantly know when and when not specific decisions need to be made to progress the build successfully.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------

On Hue:

On 1/5/2018 at 5:41 PM, Mind Character said:

Obviously Hue has made numerous critical mistakes (from situational football judgments, play calling, overloading a rookie QB w/ advanced responsibilities, etc)

What is the Context in which Hue's Personal Mistakes Exists & How do they relate to the rest of the league:

I. The Context of the Rookie QBs Over 2 years:

2016 Teams starting rookie QB: Head Coach, Rookie's Record, Player Name (Position Drafted), Did the QB have Big PreDraft Question Marks, Surrounding Offensive Talent

1. Jason Garrett, Cowboys 13-3, Dak Prescott (4th round pick), TOP OL, RB1, WR1, TE1 - top tier talent on offense

2. Jeff Fischer, Rams 0-7, Jared Goff (1st overall), RB1, Terrible OL - No real playmakers outside of RB1

3. Doug Pederson, Eagles 7-9, Carson Wentz (2nd overall), Top OL Best OTs, TE1, TE2, O-Weapon (Sproles) - Avg. Talent w/ top OL and 3 reliable Offensive playmakers

4. Hue Jackson, Browns 0-7, Cody Kessler (End of the 3rd rnd), Bad/Compromised OL, WR2, RB2 - 3 OLs were garbage, one ascending WR, decent RB, no playmakers

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2017 Teams starting QB

1. John Fox, Bears 4-8, Mitchell Trubisky (2nd overall), Above Avg. OL, RB1 Pro-bowler, RB2 weapon - Some reliable playmakers but not much else

2. Bill Obrien, Texans 3-4, Deshaun Watson (12th overall), Terrible OL, RB1, WR1 Hopkins arguably the best in the game, WR2, TE2 - Top playmakers at WR position, good RB

3. Hue Jackson, Browns 0-15, Deshone Kizer (52nd overall), Good OL, Terrible WRs, RB2, Pass catching RB1, Terrible WRs, rookie TE - Inexperienced playmakers until WR1 last 5 gms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

II. The Context of the Team/Season Context over Last 2 years:

2016 General Issues, Criticisms & +/- Opinions of Hue/Team (Back then not in Hindsight)

  • Passed on Wentz and missed out on Goff
  • Took a risky gamble on RG3
  • Main Criticism The Win-Loss record
  • Pulling Cody Kessler at Half Time Against the Ravens (Is he hurting the QBs Confidence)
  • Gets too pass happy not relying on the run enough
  • Innovative use of Terrelle Pryor
  • Too aggressive in the deep vertical passing game for rookie QB.
  • OL was garbage (Austin Paztor, rookie Drango, Cam Erving)
  • WRs were garbage
  • Positive that he shouldered total blame for results on the team week after week
  • Defense had to get 43 scheme players (Ogbah, Nassib, Schobert) to fit Horton's 34 defense
  • Consensus Opinion: The team was historically devoid of talent, very young, and it was easy to predict historic awfulness

Heading into 2017 Team Changes: The only difference between the 2016 team and the 2017 team literally was Subtracting Joe Haden, Terrelle Pryor, Demario Davis & Adding Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Kevin Zeitler, JC Tretter, & Rookies at key/critical positions...that's it.

2017 General Issues, Criticisms & +/- Opinions of Hue/Team (Back then not in Hindsight)

  • Couldn't get clear QB1 (Trubisky, Mahomes), passed on Watson
  • Put too much on a young QBs plate which makes sense to test his limits, but did not dial it back
  • Made comments about not being good enough and having to "play perfect" further promoting media and fan sentiment that he was blaming the players and not himself
  • Made comments about team decisions shining a light on criticism of the front office
  • Made bad situational football decisions on 4th down
  • Called pass plays on first down and pass plays backed into the endzone despite having a QB that was likely to throw INTs
  • Made shortsighted decisions out of desperation of trying to win
  • Cracked after the first Cincy game, let losing take its toll, started making comments regarding the talent of the roster
  • Defended himself/competence as an offensive coordinator and why there weren't many other runcalls which created fodder for local and national media to write that he threw his RB Crowell under the bus
  • Called some innovative vertical threat games that schemed open David Njoku and RBs running free multiple times in multiple games that the young QB missed repeatedly.

------------------------------------------------------------

III. The Context of Other Coaches/Teams & their Seasonal Controversy:

 

Even still the way that I view HCs in the league probably explains why I'm more guarded about my many criticisms of Hue's mistakes than others and don't scream out "Hue must be fired until then all is lost" every chance there is to talk about the Browns.

B/c I watch and read about so many other teams it puts into context what our experience of what we as mostly insular Browns sports community fans think is unique.

W-L record aside:

This year alone the following coaches were embroiled in serious controversy (national and local criticism about their competence and mismanagement of the team) regarding HC issues (i.e., critical situational football errors, blaming/calling out players, playcalling struggles, end of game fatal errors, mismanagement of timeouts, not using personnel correctly, etc)

**** === The coaches that have also had controversy regarding perceived "blaming of players."

Interesting Note: Of these 19 coaches,  7 of them had readily available news stories about clashes or blaming of the Front Office.

1. Andy Reid

2. Pete Carroll****

3. Adam Gase****

4. Hue Jackson****

5. Ron Rivera****

6. Jason Garrett

7. Dirk Koetter****

8, Mike Mularkey****

9. Jay Gruden****

10. Jack Del Rio****

11. Ben Mcadoo****

12. John Fox

13. Mike Mccarthy****

14. Chuck Pagano

15. Marvin Lewis****

16. Vance Joseph****

17. Dan Quinn****

18. Bruce Arians****

19. Bill O'brien****

That's over half the league. Those teams' fans stomach the issues b/c they periodically experience a win that washes away the sins.

We never have the chance to be renewed and eased by winning here.

Those other teams have either have veteran QBs or talent/veterans surrounding a young QB (all except Deshaun Watson who was just amazing period)

--------------------------------------

IV. A Brief History/Overview of QB Decisions:

1. We wanted Jared Goff (that evaluation was correct),

2. We liked Wentz but not enough to not go analytic trade down (That was a big Misevaluation),

3. Out of the available talents in FA (there wasn't any), we took a calculated risk on 1 of the most talented athletes to ever play the position (RG3) who had amazing heights in the NFL and some injury and coaching clash issues.

4. We selected a hard working, pinpoint accurate, marginal arm strength player in what amounts to the FOURTH (4th) round of the draft (i.e., a compensatory 3rd round pick) w/ no intention to play him. When bashed by media and the league...Hue says trust me.

5. We tried to trade up for Trubiskty (Correct Evaluation data pending), We like and wanted Mahomes (Correct evaluation data pending), We liked (and maybe even Hue loved Deshaun Watson if we believe Watson's predraft convo/text story about Hue) but like everyone else except for the Texans passed on Watson (as did the Bears, 49ers, Jets, Jaguars, Chargers, Bengals, Chiefs)- That also so far looks to be a Misevaluation.

6. We selected a 2nd round QB with rare ability and some critical issues

A lot of the things being used as evidence to confirm previously held beliefs actually weren't terrible decisions given the context in which they happened (Cody in the 4th round...RG3 once Goff was outta reach...)

-----------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mind Character said:

@brownie man

Building a roster is a lot like building a building. The re-build proceeds in stages with each stage requiring different tools, resources, knowledge, planning, and organization of workers.

Sashi was amazing and a master at one major component of the build: Tearing down what previously existed to start anew, making deals to extra materials for a successful build in the future, cutting cost to increase available money for the build, and acquiring materials and resources (draft picks and cap space) to one day be used for a major and intense overhaul and rebuild.

 

 

 

Beautiful post Mind

your post alone was worth it enough to make this thread

what do you do for a living man? If your as detailed in your job as you are here you've got to be a pretty successful guy 

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22 minutes ago, brownie man said:

Beautiful post Mind

your post alone was worth it enough to make this thread

what do you do for a living man? If your as detailed in your job as you are here you've got to be a pretty successful guy 

Stop with the jokes, Brownie...we all know my posts are trash and you didn't read it...and no one will read it...that's why I made it super long....I take pride in the eye rolls as people skip past my posts or put me on the ignore list..lol.

Just now...I edited the post from earlier as I forgot the "On Sashi" stuff pulled from previous posts that were the whole reason why I responded in the first place.. Everything else was pulled from previous posts.

I'm just a person out here trying to figure out what's happening on this planet.

My work is in psychological trauma, and I like to write.

And for some ridiculous reason...in between that and fam time I have an unhealthy obsession with the Cleveland Browns (disgusting)...where I follow every update to this sad excuse for a football team.

 

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6 hours ago, Mind Character said:

@brownie man

Are you serious man?

Just trying to get a rise out of people...gaslighting them...lol.

I'll save you time...this thread will be the same as the fire Hue thread...

99.999999% of people on this forum think the exact same crystal clear thing; that is, everyone hates Hue, thinks he's the worst coach in NFL history, believes he never called a good game, believes all he does is throw players under the bus, believes that he never takes responsibility ever, and his offensive scheming makes no sense, and he's a joke.

As if you haven't been on this forum enough to know what everyone thinks on this topic.

I'm taking the over on 40 on the times Hueball and Huebris will be used in this thread.

I have a lot of criticism of Hue and Sashi, but ultimately focus on the context of their work and see things a little differently when it comes to evaluating the goods and bads of their time with the Browns.

-------------------------------------------------------

On Sashi:

 

There are a few major things many seem to overlook when it comes to Sashi:

1. Sashi was not necessarily fired, but upgraded on by a person with recent rebuilding experience of a team without a QB to go from losing to sustained winning with a QB in the playoffs.

2. John Dorsey was a better gamble to properly utilize the materials and resources (draft capital, FA money, etc...) to make prudent decisions for the rebuild.

3. Sashi had no team building or scouting experience, but was brilliant enough to know what he didn't know, rely on the consensus of experts, and make disciplined judgments based on the gathering of all relevant information. This got him far and allowed him to make many sound decisions based on the wisdom and risk aversion of consensus.

4. Our personnel department had no one with expertise in the multi-dimensional aspects of roster building as a lead decision maker (i.e., Did Andrew Berry have that experience? No...Paul DePo?...No. Chisholm Opara? No......Ken Kovach?...No....Bobby Vega? No....Sashi Brown? No... As a result, it was necessary to upgrade the Personnel department to effectively prepare for the major rebuilding most important offseason in Browns history.

5. A 2016, 1-15 team that preseason was thought to go 0-16 due to roster issues cannot Subtract Joe Haden (Leader), Demario Davis (Leader), Terrelle Pryor (1000 yard receiver), then ADD Kenny Britt, Jason Mccourty, Calvin Pryor, JC Tretter, Kevin Zeitler, 7 rookie starters, and expect that 1-15 team to be better especially when starting the youngest QB in the league who was a 2nd round pick who struggled in college his final year and was never ready to play.

6. Sashi drafted 43 defensive skill set players to play the 34 w/ Ray Horton showing a lack in understanding of roster building. One of the major overlooked issues in his tenure was the decision to draft and/or rely on whatever consensus there was for Emmanuel Ogbah, Joe Schobert, and Carl Nassib,

  • These selections showed that key decision makers and Sashi did not get that a critical aspect of roster building is drafting to the scheme and utilization plans of the coaches. On no planet are Ogbah, Schobert, and Nassib 34 defense players. In fact, their selections forced Ray Horton (his issues in coaching aside) to run a 43 scheme (also not Shelton's best scheme). This caused confusion and cognitive burden on players going from scheme to scheme (In the same year, Ogbah played 5tech 34 DE. 34 OLB, and 43 DE).
  • While not a fatal error, a seasoned GM does not make those decisions and that those decisions were made at the time (they make sense now given we are in the 43), it did show a lack of knowledge in basic fundamentals of roster building

6. The Roster architect needed to build the roster in this stage of the rebuild needs expertise outside of Sashi's skill set.

  • (re)Building a roster is a lot like building a building. The re-build proceeds in stages with each stage requiring different tools, resources, knowledge, planning, and organization of workers.
  • Sashi was amazing and a master at one major component of the build: Tearing down what previously existed to start anew, making deals to acquire extra materials for a successful build in the future, and cutting cost to increase available money for the build.
  • The thing is THAT's NOT ALL that there is to building a roster and being an elite/successful GM. One has to know how to evaluate impact talent in FA, be able to not just defer to expert opinions on QBs, has to be able to properly evaluate, challenge, and grow the scouts/personnel staff, understand the complexities of roster building, and most importantly know when and when not specific decisions need to be made to progress the build successfully.

 

---------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------

On Hue:

 

 

Tellit, Mind, Tellit!  You have a supporter in the Kathouse!

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6 hours ago, pscottdai said:

Doesn't matter who should of and who shouldn't. One was, one wasn't. It is over, time to move on with what we got.

Why would you ever come to a forum like this if this is something you would post??  Seems.....just....silly.  

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If you HAD to pick between the two, it should have bee Hue that was fired.  

I believe that right now at this moment the team is in a better position than it was the day Sashi took over.  

While SAshi played a huge role in our terrible record this past two years (by design, though), we would not have gone 1-31 if we had COMPETENT coaching.  Not even good coaching, just competent.  

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2 hours ago, sdrawkcab321 said:

Both. But sashi should have never been in that position to begin with. 

This. If Haslam was going to fire (and go back on all his B.S. lip service to continuity) he should have cleaned house and fired both. He set this regime up to fail in the first place by giving Sashi control over the roster/personnel, and, being Haslam, has set up the current regime to fail with a shotgun wedding of Dorsey/Hue. Maybe after this 1 lame duck season, Haslam will stop shooting himself in the junk and let Dorsey hire his own coach, who reports to the GM and Haslam can step back and concentrate on what he does best: cheat his clients.

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