NFL News & Notes

[Packerraymond]

2 minutes ago, Norm said:

5 minutes before that trade happens, I go online and ask you if you would do it...

You would have banned me for trolling lol

I would've wanted a 3rd or 4th rounder but I wanted Kizer. Once it was announced it was a player coming back too I was hoping for Kizer.

[packfanfb]

Best part about the Randall trade is we used one of the swapped picks on a OLineman who is probably going to retire without playing a down in the NFL.  Happy Monday. 

[AlexGreen#20]

10 minutes ago, packfanfb said:

Best part about the Randall trade is we used one of the swapped picks on a OLineman who is probably going to retire without playing a down in the NFL.  Happy Monday. 

Finding new ways to make me hate that trade.

[Norm]

1 hour ago, packfanfb said:

Best part about the Randall trade is we used one of the swapped picks on a OLineman who is probably going to retire without playing a down in the NFL.  Happy Monday. 

This Gute guy needs to go. At least Ted's busts tried to play before they were out of the NFL lol

[Norm]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

I would've wanted a 3rd or 4th rounder but I wanted Kizer. Once it was announced it was a player coming back too I was hoping for Kizer.

I'll take your word. There's a ton of examples of this but I'll never forget rumor of harvin going to Sea. And they were like zomg sucks. Can't get 1000 yards. 1 hour after they got him the same 3-4 Seattle fans

"He was leading the MVP race earlier this year!!!!"

You always let yourself fall in love with a trade once it's over that (at least for me, this is more a Detroit tigers thing since we never trade lol) you would have hated just as a proposition.

Kizer has some interesting things to him. I can dig it. I'm selfishly down to see what Mac can do with that clay. I just hated the return and what it does short term.

I don't want to trade starters for projects that we trade later. Call me crazy! 

[CWood21]

1 hour ago, Packerraymond said:

I would've wanted a 3rd or 4th rounder but I wanted Kizer. Once it was announced it was a player coming back too I was hoping for Kizer.

And that's probably more than any team would have been willing to pay for a guy whose career resembles a roller coaster.  He's probably fetching a 5th round pick at earliest, maybe a conditional one that kicks up to a 4th.  Kizer was probably the best long-term asset.

[SSG]

18 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

And that's probably more than any team would have been willing to pay for a guy whose career resembles a roller coaster.  He's probably fetching a 5th round pick at earliest, maybe a conditional one that kicks up to a 4th.  Kizer was probably the best long-term asset.

A rollar coaster is better than a car crash.  Kizer looks more like a MAJOR 5 year project than a long-term asset.  You are talking about a prospect who's got to forget everything and start fresh.  This sort of MAJOR rebuild doesn't happen with success very often.  All the tools in the world won't matter much if you aren't smart enough to use them.  Until he shows he's capable of learning from his mistake I've got no confidence in him working out.  He's been pretty awful thus far this offseason.

Edited August 6, 2018 by SSG

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, SSG said:

A rollar coaster is better than car crash.  Kizer looks more like a MAJOR 5 year project than a long-term asset.  You are talking about a prospect who's got to forget everything and start fresh.  This sort of MAJOR rebuild doesn't happen with success very often.  All the tools in the world won't do much if you aren't smart enough to use them.  Until he shows he's capable of learning from his mistake I've got no confidence in him working out.  He's been pretty awful thus far this offseason.

That's a hyperbole, and you and I both know it.  Calling him a 5 year project is ridiculous.  You don't spend a 2nd round pick on a 5 year project that's for sure.  I believe (and I'm too lazy to double check), but he was the youngest starting QB last year on a miserable Browns team.  I'd honestly ask you find more than a 5 players that played well for the Browns last year.  They were a hot mess.  He was a project when he was drafted and because of poor coaching and management, he was forced into the lineup despite everyone knowing he wasn't ready to play.  And when the Browns finally wised up and took him out, they put him right back in there to mess up again.

[incognito_man]

Getting anything for Randall was a cherry on top. He didn't have a spot on this team any longer obviously.

It happens. Bad fit. Moved on.

[SSG]

49 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

That's a hyperbole, and you and I both know it.  Calling him a 5 year project is ridiculous.  You don't spend a 2nd round pick on a 5 year project that's for sure.  I believe (and I'm too lazy to double check), but he was the youngest starting QB last year on a miserable Browns team.  I'd honestly ask you find more than a 5 players that played well for the Browns last year.  They were a hot mess.  He was a project when he was drafted and because of poor coaching and management, he was forced into the lineup despite everyone knowing he wasn't ready to play.  And when the Browns finally wised up and took him out, they put him right back in there to mess up again.

I  don't believe it is.  How often do you hear about second year players that have to forget everything they've learned in the NFL and start fresh as reported by Rob D?  Him possibly being the youngest QB in the league doesn't mean much to me.  He's not any less experienced than a lot of rookies who enter the league and few have looked as bad as he did last year.   

You are confusing Deshone Kizer the kid that played at ND and the Deshone Kizer who looked as bad as any QB who's played in the NFL over the last 10 years.  Did Ted Thompson view Brian Brohm in exactly the same light in his second year that he did when he spent a second round pick on him?  His draft position means absolutely nothing IMO.

I  have a hard time putting all the blame on the Browns.  In Kizer you seen a kid making EXACTLY the same poor decisions in week 16 that he made in week one.  He wasn't able to learn from his mistakes, mistakes he's still making in camp every day.  Time will tell and I may be wrong but I don't think the kid has it between the ears and that isn't something you can fix short term.  I hope I'm wrong because he seems like a good kid.

Plenty of Browns played well, you are short selling them terribly.  There offensive line was every bit as good as our was last year.  Thomas played really well before his injury and Zeitler, Bitonio and Tretter is better than our interior.   Schobert made the pro bowl and his running mate Kirskey should have.  Body-Calhoun and McCourty were better than any pair of CB we paired up last year (not saying much obviously but they played well considering how many times their offense turned the ball over).   Crowell was nothing to yell home about but he played well considering the lack of a passing attack.  Duke Johnson also had a career year.  It's hard to win games when your QB is turning the ball over at a historic rate.  The single biggest reason Cleveland went winless last year was the horrid play of Deshone Kizer. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by SSG

[packfanfb]

16 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

Getting anything for Randall was a cherry on top. He didn't have a spot on this team any longer obviously.

It happens. Bad fit. Moved on.

Guy may have excelled under Pettine at safety. He hated Capers and probably was too vocal about it, which is what got him traded. Now that he's gone, you're seeing other players dog Capers every chance they get, including 12. Another reason I find it hard to believe that any players actually wanted him gone. 

[CWood21]

2 minutes ago, SSG said:

I  don't believe it is.  How often do you hear about second year players that have to forget everything they've learned in the NFL and start fresh as reported by Rob D?  Him possibly being the youngest QB in the league doesn't mean much to me.  He's not any less experienced than a lot of rookies who enter the league and few have looked as bad as he did last year.   

You are confusing Deshone Kizer the kid that played at ND and the Deshone Kizer who looked as bad as any QB who's played in the NFL over the last 10 years.  Did Ted Thompson view Brian Brohm in exactly the same light in his second year that he did when he spent a second round pick on him?  His draft position means absolutely nothing IMO.

I  have a hard time putting all the blame on the Browns.  In Kizer you seen a kid making EXACTLY the same poor decisions in week 16 that he made in week one.  He wasn't able to learn from his mistakes, mistakes he's still making in camp every day.  Time will tell and I may be wrong but I don't think the kid has it between the ears and that isn't something you can fix short term.  I hope I'm wrong because he seems like a good kid.

Plenty of Browns played well, you are short selling them terribly.  There offensive line was every bit as good as our was last year.  Thomas played really well before his injury and Zeitler, Bitonio and Tretter is better than our interior.   Schobert made the pro bowl and his running mate Kirskey should have.  Body-Calhoun and McCourty were better than any pair of CB we paired up last year (not saying much obviously but they played well considering how many times their offense turned the ball over).   Crowell was nothing to yell home about but he played well considering the lack of a passing attack.  Duke Johnson also had a career year.  It's hard to win games when your QB is turning the ball over at a historic rate.  The single biggest reason Cleveland went winless last year was the horrid play of Deshone Kizer. 

Name me a SINGLE player that was drafted in the top 64 picks that was EVER viewed as a 5 year project.  You won't.  You don't select players with a top 64 pick who isn't going to be a player who is good until their second contract.  The GM will be fired on the spot.  That's the hyperbole.  And it doesn't help your argument to make an outlandish statement.

Let's put something into perspective.  In the last 30 seasons, we've had TWO teams who went winless during the regular season ('18 Browns and '08 Lions).  You don't go winless during a regular season unless your franchise is a dumpster fire.  Does QB play affect that W/L?  Probably, but putting it entirely at the feet of Kizer is downright ridiculous.  LIS, name me 5 players on the Browns roster that played well last year.  I'll even give you a head start, and let you use Joe Thomas as one of them.  The Browns were bad last year.  It started at the top with ownership and worked all the way down to the players.  There isn't a single part of that franchise that could be deemed successful last year.  None.

Him having to "forget everything" speaks more about the damage that the Browns' coaching staff did and installing good habits.  That's not because he's bad, but it's a different way of teaching.  McCarthy has a very particular way of developing his QBs, hence the QB school.  That figures to be different than Hue Jackson who comes from a different coaching line than Mike McCarthy.  If you think that there's a linear way of developing a QB coming from different offensive philosophies, I think you're wildly unrealistic with your expectations.  It doesn't mean much to you, because it hurts your argument.  This was a guy who SHOULD have sat on the bench the entire year.  Instead, the ownership (and FO) got impatient and forced Hue Jackson to play him way earlier than he should have.  I mean, look at this year's QB class.  Of the guys drafted in the first round, only Sam Darnold really figures to be the opening day starting QB.  The Browns have already said that they are going to keep Baker on the bench, the Bills have slowly pushed Josh Allen, and Josh Rosen has to beat out Sam Bradford to win the starting QB spot.  I mean, if you need more proof look at how the Browns are handling Baker Mayfield and how they handled DeShone Kizer.  They ran out Kizer knowing damn well he wasn't ready to play right away.  They've pretty much already said Baker won't be playing for a while.  I think we'd all agree that Baker is a more NFL-ready QB coming out than Kizer.  So if Baker isn't starting despite being ready, why was Kizer throw into the fire?  Irresponsible management.

How much growth do you think you're going to see out of a rookie who wasn't ready to play as a rookie?  Most of the growth comes in between the first two years in the league.  If they weren't ready to play Week 1, they're probably not ready to play Week 16 either.  This isn't a light switch.  It's going to take a full offseason of development.  If Kizer is still playing poorly and making bad decisions, we can discuss this then.  But I must have missed the tweets where Kizer looked like a deer in headlights.  He might not be setting the world on fire, but saying he's the same player as last year seems erroneous at best.

And it's funny you mention Brian Brohm.  It's the one part of the game that none of us can effectively evaluate.  It's one that really only the coaching staff has access to, and the problem was Brohm couldn't process the game fast enough and it came back to haunt them.  Maybe that's the case with Kizer, but I'm not going to pretend I'm privy to that information since he's been in the Packers' camp for what a few weeks now?

[Packerraymond]

1 hour ago, SSG said:

A rollar coaster is better than a car crash.  Kizer looks more like a MAJOR 5 year project than a long-term asset.  You are talking about a prospect who's got to forget everything and start fresh.  This sort of MAJOR rebuild doesn't happen with success very often.  All the tools in the world won't matter much if you aren't smart enough to use them.  Until he shows he's capable of learning from his mistake I've got no confidence in him working out.  He's been pretty awful thus far this offseason.

This is major exaggeration. Kizer can sling it, I've seen no where that he's had a bad camp and he's got some serious arm talent. I saw him in person and he had some impressive tools. He's already standing out more than Hundley. 

Give me a QB that trusts himself and system too much and forces it, then one like Hundley who has all the tools but doesn't trust it. Brohm was the same QB. Those guys don't change. You can reign in a gunslinger, you can't force Hundley to throw the ball he knows he should throw.

[AlexGreen#20]

7 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

This is major exaggeration. Kizer can sling it, I've seen no where that he's had a bad camp and he's got some serious arm talent. I saw him in person and he had some impressive tools. He's already standing out more than Hundley. 

Give me a QB that trusts himself and system too much and forces it, then one like Hundley who has all the tools but doesn't trust it. Brohm was the same QB. Those guys don't change. You can reign in a gunslinger, you can't force Hundley to throw the ball he knows he should throw.

Whether Hundley is excessively tentative or just a slow processor, I think you could make a compelling argument that's an issue that's going to clean up with reps.

[Packerraymond]

23 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Whether Hundley is excessively tentative or just a slow processor, I think you could make a compelling argument that's an issue that's going to clean up with reps.

Agree to disagree on that one. The guys who come into the league hesitant to pull the trigger, leave it the same way. Maybe you're right and with reps that changes, but your quality of play at QB when you don't trust it doesn't afford you a long enough career to get those reps.