NFL News & Notes

[Striker]

2 minutes ago, squire12 said:

Thuney was a FA singing by KC.  Drafted by NE

Good catch, I think I threw in Thuney when I meant Smith.

[vegas492]

2 hours ago, squire12 said:

I know you are not comparing Mahomes to Rodgers, but stating that each has 1 super bowl win, while not stating that Mahomes has at least been to another Super Bowl and has played about1/3 the number of seasons as Rodgers is very misleading

Well...I'm not, but kindda am.

Yes, Mahomes got to another one, whereas Rodgers has not.

But....Mahomes is the best, right?  Has been for a few years?  Won one quickly, and lately???

To me, that is similar to Rodgers.  Then when I look at the Chiefs team...now and in the past....there are similarities to those post 2010 Rodgers teams.  Meaning the defense has a good player or two....but it isn't good enough to get it done in big games.

I hope Mahomes doesn't go down as "like Rodgers" in that he wins one title early when starting, then doesn't get another one.  

[Packerraymond]

3 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

I hope Mahomes doesn't go down as "like Rodgers" in that he wins one title early when starting, then doesn't get another one.  

Why??? That would be perfect and exactly what I want to happen. Get the 1 SB for Favre and Rodgers monkey off our back. Manning only wins one with his OG team, Mahomes only wins 1, it would no longer be used as an insult to us.

[vegas492]

3 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Why??? That would be perfect and exactly what I want to happen. Get the 1 SB for Favre and Rodgers monkey off our back. Manning only wins one with his OG team, Mahomes only wins 1, it would no longer be used as an insult to us.

Why?  Because I personally love how Mahomes plays the game and how Reid runs an offense.

I could care less about anything being an "insult" to us.

[Packerraymond]

1 minute ago, vegas492 said:

Why?  Because I personally love how Mahomes plays the game and how Reid runs an offense.

I could care less about anything being an "insult" to us.

Eh I'm kinda sick of Mahomes and the Chiefs. Would much rather see Burrow or Allen get one. Burrow would be a great story and that Bengals fanbase certainly has waited their turn, same with Buffalo.

[squire12]

13 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Well...I'm not, but kindda am.

Yes, Mahomes got to another one, whereas Rodgers has not.

But....Mahomes is the best, right?  Has been for a few years?  Won one quickly, and lately???

4 straight AFCCG

back to back Super Bowl appearances with 1 title.  

At current time, that is better than Rodgers 

[vegas492]

20 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Eh I'm kinda sick of Mahomes and the Chiefs. Would much rather see Burrow or Allen get one. Burrow would be a great story and that Bengals fanbase certainly has waited their turn, same with Buffalo.

I like all of them.  I'm not sick of Mahomes yet, just because I love how he plays the game.

I get the Cincy stuff, and I do really like watching Burrow, too.

Allen.  I like him, but he's QB3 for me behind the other two...just in terms of how much I like watching him play.  But...given what the Bills have gone through this year....very easy team to root for.

[vegas492]

20 minutes ago, squire12 said:

4 straight AFCCG

back to back Super Bowl appearances with 1 title.  

At current time, that is better than Rodgers 

No doubt.

Also...just the one title so far.  With a limited running game and meh defense.

 

[incognito_man]

1 hour ago, vegas492 said:

Why?  Because I personally love how Mahomes plays the game and how Reid runs an offense.

I could care less about anything being an "insult" to us.

Like a little less? Or a lot less? It makes a difference in the point being made.

[hitnhope]

4 hours ago, Striker said:

So, first off, Khalen Saunders hasn't started a game this season. Also, it's funny when you cite Saunders as an example of effective drafting when his numbers basically mirror Kingsley Keke but he's a third rounder vs. Keke being a fifth rounder.

Also, you forgot Derrick Nnadi so the numbers are a wash.

KC has 11 of 22 starters drafted by Veach (charitably considering Watson a starter). The Packers have 10 of 22 starters drafted by Gute (Watson, Doubs, Jenkins, Myers, Runyan, Wyatt, Walker, Enagbare, Alexander, Savage).

If we were to look back at last season...going by list of starters per PFR (this is likely either start of season or midseason since Alexander is missing but Jenkins is on it), KC had 9 of 22 starters drafted by Veach (CEH, Hardman, Humphrey, Trey Smith, Lucas Niang, Willie Gay, Nick Bolton, L'Jarius Sneed, Juan Thornhill).

The Packers had 8 of 22 starters drafted by Gute (MVS, Jenkins, Runyan, Newman, Keke, Gary, Stokes, Savage).

If you want to go by each team's last playoff game, KC had 6 (Thuney, Humphrey, Gay, Bolton, Sneed, Thornhill) and GB had 9 (MVS, Myers, Newman, Runyan, Keke, Gary, Stokes, Alexander, Savage).

In fact, both teams from last year mirrored each other. Their most important pieces were either from the other GM (Mahomes, Kelce, Hill, Jones vs. Rodgers/Adams/Clark) or were FA signings/trades (Frank Clark, Orlando Brown, Mathieu vs. the Smiths/Amos/Campbell).

Also, Veach also has 2 of 12 players (Nnadi - 3rd, Thornhill - 2nd) as starters and 5 of 12 overall (adding Allegretti - 7th, Saunders - 3rd, and Hardman - 2nd) from his first two drafts on the roster. Gute has 4 starters (Gary - 1st, Savage - 1st , Jenkins - 2nd, Alexander - 1st) and 4 of 19 overall. So both GMs are keeping their early round picks but neither are really giving second contracts to their later round picks.

...which tracks with pretty much every other team in the NFL/the general odds of how the draft works.

So, it remains funny to me that you try to prove Gute is doing it wrong (again, my biggest issue is the handling of the Rodgers situation) but then prop up a GM who mirrors Gute in a lot of ways...except he has a 27 year old QB who is still ascending vs. Gute having a 39 year old future HoFer who is on the decline.

You threw a bunch of words, but what of this supports Gute?  Do you think drafting Savage and Runyon is equal to drafting Chris Jones, and Travis Kelce?   Your view is the kindest possible to support Gute but ignores the lack of impact in later rounds of the draft.

For the list I used the ESPN list for starting lineups last week for KC to try and not be accused of cherry picking.

Of course the biggest criticism of Gute is the handling of Rodgers and the QB situation.  He has bungled it at every step during his tenure.  The lack of impact drafts is only a secondary issue to the QB and the holes left in the roster on what were competitive teams.  Going into the playoffs last year with our ST was criminal.   Going into this season with the plan of Rodgers being the returner again was even worse.

You can only ignore the decline in performance of the team for so long.   How long are you willing to wait?

[Striker]

50 minutes ago, hitnhope said:

You threw a bunch of words, but what of this supports Gute?  Do you think drafting Savage and Runyon is equal to drafting Chris Jones, and Travis Kelce?   Your view is the kindest possible to support Gute but ignores the lack of impact in later rounds of the draft.

For the list I used the ESPN list for starting lineups last week for KC to try and not be accused of cherry picking.

Of course the biggest criticism of Gute is the handling of Rodgers and the QB situation.  He has bungled it at every step during his tenure.  The lack of impact drafts is only a secondary issue to the QB and the holes left in the roster on what were competitive teams.  Going into the playoffs last year with our ST was criminal.   Going into this season with the plan of Rodgers being the returner again was even worse.

You can only ignore the decline in performance of the team for so long.   How long are you willing to wait?

I really can't help you if you're going to refuse to understand why your arguments and defenses of them are somewhere between inconsistent and disingenuous.

But, because I hate myself, I'll try one more time.

You discredit what Gute has done because his best players are inherited, while claiming KC has done better through the draft with the three prime examples being players from the prior regime (Hill, Kelce, Chris Jones). Their current GM (Brett Veach) inherited Jones, Kelce, Hill, and Mahomes (which is arguably even better than inheriting Rodgers) and has drafted players of a similar caliber to the ones you complain about during his time running the team.

You also keep getting hung up on "impact in later rounds of the draft.".

But Veach's early picks have been underperforming, while his later picks (the 4 that are starting) are overperforming. So, as has been discussed, is it better to miss early or miss late?

Both KC and GB have turned over most of their 4th round and later picks from their 2018 and 2019 drafts and have, if I counted correctly, 14 (GB) and 11 (KC) of those players on their rosters from 2020 through 2022.

And this season will mean a lot for Gute/MLF/MM. However, I also understand how similar a lot of these teams and GMs are with their hit rates, with their strategies, and with their situations. The Packers had three good years and hit a down year. The same with Tampa. It's an inevitable part of what happens in this league, especially when your team is built around a QB who is 38+.

Edited January 19, 2023 by Striker

[Norm]

 

 

 

[hitnhope]

I understand your points. I'm more focused on the poor handling of AR last year and instead of taking the draft picks and building a stronger future he gave him too much control.   I'm focused on the lack of plus starting talent brought in over the last 5+ years.    I will grant for the Packers part of the problem is the last few TT drafts being subpar as well.

The problem as I see it is the lack of plus level contributors. I just think the lack of draft hits coupled with the larger issues of roster mgt and the ridiculous management of our QB position should have him on the hot seat.   

The other big problem with the organization is sticking with failed coaches too long.   This goes back further than Gute.   We needed to move on from Capers forever.   We needed to put much bigger thought to ST roster and coaching for years.  It is distressing to watch us stick with Barry at DC.    How many years do we give him?

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by hitnhope

[hitnhope]

6 minutes ago, Norm said:

 

 

 

Still adding nothing to the discussion.   For someone who lacks knowledge and ideas, you sure spend a lot of time criticizing other posters who may have ideas different from the forum narrative.

 

[packfanfb]

Vikings fired Donatell. Bucs also made several staff changes after one subpar season. LaFleur won't do anything. He's likely afraid to fire yet another DC because it would only make him look incompetent. In reality, neither Barry nor Stenavich are qualified for their positions, but it pays to be friends with Matt.