hitnhope Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 3 hours ago, vegas492 said: Question for the anti-Gute guys....and I'm not judging at all, I get it..... But let's say that Rodgers comes back and do creative accounting to bring most everyone back. And we get to the NFC Championship game...and lose. Are you still going to be anti-Gute? And anti the Rodgers contract? Or is it Super Bowl victory or this is a complete failure? I'm curious. And I'm not judging at all. They need to get to or win the SB. His biggest failures IMO are the handling of QB over his entire run, the poor ST for 2 years spoiling any chance for a SB, and going into this year with no viable WR corp. If he had done just the little extra we very possibly would have a SB during his time. Better timing and management of QB, ST talent /leadership, and better management of the WR group were all very possible. They obviously misjudged the talent of this year's team going all in on a roster that had no chance. I think a top shelf GM has a better read of his team then the Packers have had for the last several years. I can't blame him for the early season OL failures, but the poor receiving talent of the early season was very predictable. Who knows if they could have covered for WR if the OL was healthy and had the better players actually on the field. Expecting a Barry led defense to be any different than what it was, was a misstep as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15412 Posted January 20, 2023 Share Posted January 20, 2023 A GM and anyone above him involved in decision making are charged with both winning in the near future and in the long term future. Winning at the highest level, the Super Bowl, is always the goal. It shouldn't be looked at in any other way. Balance is they key. The decision to give an old QB that kind of bloated contract with all the leverage to boot was a desperate and stupid decision as it was. Now add in the opportunity cost of not trading him then. That not only cost us as it turned out in the short run, but will greatly cost the team in the long run. What they need to do now is determine what players need to stay strictly based on their own merit, and in one way or another move the rest. We are in serious cap trouble and we need to begin to address it now. Then see where ol Rodg is at, and if not here where he is willing to go. Get all you can for him, which will be a fraction of what we could have got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrimiv Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Kind of under the radar now, but I am still not over the mistake Gute made by not making a more serious attempt to acquire OBJ last season. If OBJ is in a Packers uniform rather than the Rams uniform, it's not unreasonable to think it would be GB rather than the Rams as reigning SB champs. For myself, I think that is exactly how it would have played out. It may or may not be true that OBJ was dead set on being a Ram, but GB sure could have made it a tougher decision for him. By every account I read, GB lowballed him and never mover off that offer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrimiv Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 On 1/20/2023 at 12:20 AM, Sandy said: I'm getting real concerned about MLF. When you go into a season thinking Super Bowl or bust and you miss the playoffs and there is no scapegoat? MLF after the DET loss in week 18 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 If the Vikings nab Flores for DC while Matthew sticks with his buddy Joe Barry, allow me to officially create the Fire LaFleur thread. That will be the last confirmation I need that Matt either doesn't have the brains or the stones for the job. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnypackerfan Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 23 hours ago, hitnhope said: From reading these Gute posts you would actually think we were a good team instead of below .500. His mistakes overshadow the few hits. We are getting worse as a team under his watch. For me, its hard to really evaluate Gute at this moment given the current management reporting system implemented by Murphy. Given our annual tight cap situation, Gute appears to do a good job in getting 2 or 3 cheap free agents each year that outplay their contracted pay. He was exceptional at this in 2021. He generally fills in holes as well as he can given the cap situation we're under. His drafts are no better nor no worse than other GM's, which is not bad given where we have been drafting. Its harder to find gems in the late first than in the first 10 picks of the draft. It's the Rodgers situation and contract that has me perplexed. He drafts Love with a first round pick during a period where Rodgers play was in decline. Then Rodgers' play level makes a huge come back and Rodgers makes a major power play and succeeds at getting virtually everything he wants. Just where did Gute really sit in all of that. Was he truly all in on resigning Rodgers to a new contract or was his hand partially forced by Murphy. I'd love to know that but we'll probably never know for the next three or four years until Murphy is gone. Rodgers decline in his level of play this year makes that decision look really bad and that contract is like a noose around our neck right now. I do not see a team with Rodgers on it with that contract that can put together the depth of talent required to cover up that decline and win an NFC Championship game. Plus, Rodgers is now going on pod casts and talking about which players he feels he would want back to enjoy his time in Green Bay. So for me...I'm very interested in how this offseason plays out, Rodgers holds nearly all the cards. How Gute plays this will probably sway me in how good a GM he really is. I'm not nor should Gute be worried about Rodgers, I am and he should be worried about the Packers right now. Rodgers is declining and so are we and bringing back the gang won't make it better. What Gute does this year and how that turns out may be how people finally judge him as a GM. Hopefully the right choices get made. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 21 hours ago, Sandy said: 3. Third round drafting. You expect to get your role-playing starters there. We're barely getting quality special teamers. Maybe it's been bad luck but he needs to learn how to approach that part of the draft. Why do you think that is? Is the team taking a shot at their favorite 4th-5th round prospect? Do we seem to overrate a guy in our top 100 every year? Since Gute has taken over in 2018, he has had one year where the 3rd rounder wasn't outplayed by a 4th or 5th rounder, and one that is probably a push. Perhaps it is just too small a sample size. But that wouldn't be a thing if we just switched draft positions of Sean Rhyan and Zach Tom, for example. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Striker Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 (edited) I think we're overestimating 3rd round hit rate. Looking at 49ers during Lynch's tenure. 2022 Tyrion Davis-Price, Danny Gray - Both have done nothing 2021 Trey Sermon, Ambry Thomas - Sermon is off the team and Thomas hasn't done much 2019 Jalen Hurd - Off the team 2018 Fred Warner, Tarvarius Moore - Warner is obviously a stud. Moore has...existed? 2017 Ahkello Witherspoon, CJ Beathard - Witherspoon was an up and down player, didn't get a second contract. Beathard was bad as a starter and is now backing up Lawrence in Jacksonville. So he had one smash, 6 players who basically existed or busted, and 2 incomplete (though early returns aren't promising). KC during Veach's tenure 2022 Leo Chenal - The former Badger great has been a role playing contributor for KC. 2020 Lucas Niang - Was solid but not spectacular as starting RT in 2021 but hasn't been able to come back from injury this season 2019 Khalen Saunders - Had been trending bust but has been better this year (contract year). 2018 Derrick Nnadi, Dorian O'Daniel - Nnadi is starting but it seems like his past two seasons have been shaky. O'Daniel is off the team. So with 5 players, they have 2 starters (who might be in the average to mediocre category?), 1 incomplete (though might be a hit?), 1 off the team, and 1 working his way back from injury. And then there's Licht from Tampa 2014 Charles Sims - Never really did much 2017 Chris Godwin - Hit 2018 Alex Cappa - Hit 2019 Jamel Dean, Mike Edwards - Hits 2020 Ke'Shawn Vaughn - Bust 2021 Robert Hainsey -Hit 2022 Rachaad White - Incomplete, but might have something here. So he went an astounding 6/8 with these third round picks. But, of course, this is an isolated sample size of one round and doesn't look at other moves GMs made. As I like to point out, Licht had a real rough initial few drafts with Tampa...including trading their third and fourth round picks to draft a kicker in 2016. But yeah, it's pretty wild how much variance there is. Edited January 21, 2023 by Striker 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrimiv Posted January 21, 2023 Share Posted January 21, 2023 Thanks for bringing up 2017 and Chris Godwin. With Cobb and Jordy both looking like they were nearing the end of their time in GB, I was convinced Godwin would be GB's pick in RD2. Between passing on Watt in RD1 and then Godwin in RD2 (for Josh friggen Jones), I think that is as disappointed as I have ever been during the draft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 15 hours ago, ThatJerkDave said: Why do you think that is? Is the team taking a shot at their favorite 4th-5th round prospect? Do we seem to overrate a guy in our top 100 every year? Since Gute has taken over in 2018, he has had one year where the 3rd rounder wasn't outplayed by a 4th or 5th rounder, and one that is probably a push. Perhaps it is just too small a sample size. But that wouldn't be a thing if we just switched draft positions of Sean Rhyan and Zach Tom, for example. Tough to say. It seems like he's trying to get too cute? His five third round picks have ranged from non-premium to ultra-non-premium positions (ILB, TE, H-Back, KR, OG), and it seems like some of his lowest RAS scores of all his draft picks have been in that round. Not that either of those are definitively the reason for the lack of success in the round (small sample size could very well be the culprit) but based on his picks and the results, he might be overthinking his approach to that round. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatJerkDave Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 20 hours ago, Striker said: I think we're overestimating 3rd round hit rate. A lot of good stuff. The issue that I have is that Gute, and TT before him, have been able to pluck contributors from the 4th and 5th pretty consistently. When you look through the team's draft history, you have to go all the way back to 2010 where we had a "top player" drafted in the third round. And even going back all the way to Sherman and Wolf, the third round has not been where the Packers seem to make their mark. Is there something in the Al Davis tree that seems to misevaluate in the 70-90 range? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refugee Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, ThatJerkDave said: A lot of good stuff. The issue that I have is that Gute, and TT before him, have been able to pluck contributors from the 4th and 5th pretty consistently. When you look through the team's draft history, you have to go all the way back to 2010 where we had a "top player" drafted in the third round. And even going back all the way to Sherman and Wolf, the third round has not been where the Packers seem to make their mark. Is there something in the Al Davis tree that seems to misevaluate in the 70-90 range? It’s a tricky range. The clear cut best of the best are off of the board. There might be some plus athletes but most have low production in college or played at a small program. Then you have the fairly productive guys who didn’t ace the combine. These are the players I would look at but there are certain speed/strength thresholds to be able to compete at the highest level. We also see a lot of OTs who are likely to get moved inside and maybe some players who you think can be good but were not used correctly or in the wrong position in college. This is the most dangerous because you take a guy like that you’re basically saying you’re smarter than everyone else and can see a guy’s best fit when everyone else couldn’t. At the end this is where TT got in trouble even in the late first and second rounds with Randall and Quinton Rollins. If we even get a decent depth piece in the 3rd that can help on ST, I’m pretty happy but only because we’ve had so many misses. Maybe Deguara and Rhyan can find some redemption. Deguara at least has been contributing so I won’t call him a bust, but also not yet a hit. Edited January 22, 2023 by Refugee 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted January 22, 2023 Author Share Posted January 22, 2023 Dustin - Vikings Edge Rusher Za’Darius Smith has cleared out his IG account. Soren Sodergren - Annual Tradition. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kepler Posted January 22, 2023 Share Posted January 22, 2023 14 hours ago, Sandy said: Tough to say. It seems like he's trying to get too cute? His five third round picks have ranged from non-premium to ultra-non-premium positions (ILB, TE, H-Back, KR, OG), and it seems like some of his lowest RAS scores of all his draft picks have been in that round. Not that either of those are definitively the reason for the lack of success in the round (small sample size could very well be the culprit) but based on his picks and the results, he might be overthinking his approach to that round. Yeah it seems like he has a tendency to go against his draft principles that round for whatever reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted January 23, 2023 Share Posted January 23, 2023 On 1/20/2023 at 3:36 PM, hitnhope said: They need to get to or win the SB. His biggest failures IMO are the handling of QB over his entire run, the poor ST for 2 years spoiling any chance for a SB, and going into this year with no viable WR corp. If he had done just the little extra we very possibly would have a SB during his time. Better timing and management of QB, ST talent /leadership, and better management of the WR group were all very possible. They obviously misjudged the talent of this year's team going all in on a roster that had no chance. I think a top shelf GM has a better read of his team then the Packers have had for the last several years. I can't blame him for the early season OL failures, but the poor receiving talent of the early season was very predictable. Who knows if they could have covered for WR if the OL was healthy and had the better players actually on the field. Expecting a Barry led defense to be any different than what it was, was a misstep as well. It's hard to fault the "handling of the QB over his entire run" when you look at the records GB has put up and the MVP's that Rodgers has won. The specials coach is on MLF, not Gute. Barry is on MLF.. Not having the team ready to play early in the season is on MLF. The WR room is on Gute. And probably the non signing of OBJ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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