packfanfb Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Outpost31 said: Lol no they’re not. They’re nothing without that line. 70% of ILBs in this league look just as good as those two in that system with those teammates. There’s a reason why you suddenly stopped hearing about Corey Littleton and Nick K, and it’s the exact same reason Blake Martinez suddenly turned into a plus player. I mean, there's more to it than this. White and David don't just make plays in the run game behind a good DL. They also run sideline-to-sideline and take away the outside run (see Week 6 game), plus they are outstanding in pass coverage. The Bucs were able to do something that no other team was equipped to do in the SB, simply put an ILB one-on-one on Kelce and not constantly give help there. David did a masterful job covering him, and yea, Kelce ended up with a lot of garbage time yardage to pad the box score, but he was virtually a non-factor when the game was in doubt. No other team, who didn't have those 2 ILBs could do that. Those guys are difference makers, in ways guys like Martinez, Littleton, Nick K, Kirksey, Barnes, and about 45 other starting ILBs in this league could never be, regardless of who is playing in front of them. In fact, I say all of this in actual support of your argument against investing in ILBs. Because I agree, having the No. 15 guy isn't much different than No. 45. Those guys are all about the same, maybe a little difference and it's more about who is in front of them. If you're going to go big at ILB, it better be a top 10 guy because those guys do make a difference in games. Tampa has 2 of them. Edited February 18, 2021 by packfanfb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 51 minutes ago, packfanfb said: I mean, there's more to it than this. White and David don't just make plays in the run game behind a good DL. They also run sideline-to-sideline and take away the outside run (see Week 6 game), plus they are outstanding in pass coverage. The Bucs were able to do something that no other team was equipped to do in the SB, simply put an ILB one-on-one on Kelce and not constantly give help there. David did a masterful job covering him, and yea, Kelce ended up with a lot of garbage time yardage to pad the box score, but he was virtually a non-factor when the game was in doubt. No other team, who didn't have those 2 ILBs could do that. Those guys are difference makers, in ways guys like Martinez, Littleton, Nick K, Kirksey, Barnes, and about 45 other starting ILBs in this league could never be, regardless of who is playing in front of them. In fact, I say all of this in actual support of your argument against investing in ILBs. Because I agree, having the No. 15 guy isn't much different than No. 45. Those guys are all about the same, maybe a little difference and it's more about who is in front of them. If you're going to go big at ILB, it better be a top 10 guy because those guys do make a difference in games. Tampa has 2 of them. Except you argued all last offseason Littleton was that guy. I’d respond to this more, but I’m at work. Yeah, they’re great to have. But Wirfs, Winfield, JPP, Vea, etc are the reason the Buccs just won. High draft picks on the lines. Plus that other EDGE they have. If you don’t have that pass rush, I don’t care if it’s prime Ray Lewis Brian Urlacher DNA clone, it doesn’t matter who is covering tight ends. No ILB will be able to be effective with OL on them all day. It’s just... All that said, I have no issue with taking an ILB where we’re drafting this year. I will continue to believe and argue that 24th overall is the cutoff point for these positions. Once all the OL, DL, QB, DB are gone, yeah. But if you start taking an ILB at 19 and you’ve got an OL worth a top 20 pick, you’re dumb. The Buccaneers drafting White was effing dumb unless they knew they were going to get Brady. The Bears drafting Smith was dumber than ****. The Cardinals drafting Simmons... Dumber than ****. The Colts drafting Nelson... Dumber than ****. At the same time, the Packers drafting Love... Dumber than ****. In a game decided by less than a TD for a trip to the SB against a team depleted on the OL... You really have to wonder what some of those picks would have done for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 29 minutes ago, Outpost31 said: Except you argued all last offseason Littleton was that guy. I’d respond to this more, but I’m at work. Yeah, they’re great to have. But Wirfs, Winfield, JPP, Vea, etc are the reason the Buccs just won. High draft picks on the lines. Plus that other EDGE they have. If you don’t have that pass rush, I don’t care if it’s prime Ray Lewis Brian Urlacher DNA clone, it doesn’t matter who is covering tight ends. No ILB will be able to be effective with OL on them all day. It’s just... All that said, I have no issue with taking an ILB where we’re drafting this year. I will continue to believe and argue that 24th overall is the cutoff point for these positions. Once all the OL, DL, QB, DB are gone, yeah. But if you start taking an ILB at 19 and you’ve got an OL worth a top 20 pick, you’re dumb. The Buccaneers drafting White was effing dumb unless they knew they were going to get Brady. The Bears drafting Smith was dumber than ****. The Cardinals drafting Simmons... Dumber than ****. The Colts drafting Nelson... Dumber than ****. At the same time, the Packers drafting Love... Dumber than ****. In a game decided by less than a TD for a trip to the SB against a team depleted on the OL... You really have to wonder what some of those picks would have done for us. Yea, I already did a whole rant about how the Bucs have killed the draft the past 3-4 years, especially on Day 2 in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. Conversely, the run of J. Jones, M. Adams, Jackson, Burks in 2017-18 left a major hole in GB. That's 4 Day 2 (top 100) picks who didn't do a damn thing for us in 2020. Hard to overcome that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemike778 Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 On 2/17/2021 at 2:25 AM, Outpost31 said: Pretty much everyone who has ever argued with me about defense winning championships shut up after the Super Bowl. Mahomes wouldn't look like that everywhere, just against great defenses. Everyone who ever cried about Mahomes having Hardman, Hill, Watkins, the TE whose name I'm brainfarting... Best QB in the world just looked like Rex Grossman. QB doesn't matter and it never will the way people think. The only thing that matters is having a QB worth his cap hit capable of putting 4 games together and having a defense. It gets old being right all the time, and it gets old seeing Brady get that all the time. I hate football. Moral of the story is there is lots of way of winning championships A dominant pass rush can win you Championships A dominant passing game can win you Championships A running game powered by the OL can win you Championships We probably beat Tampa if Rodgers isn't harassed all day. The OL probably gives Rodgers more protection if Bakhtieri doesn't do his ACL. Lots of ifs and maybes but maybe if Bakhtieri doesn't do his ACL then Packers play Chiefs in the Superbowl. If that happens then you are looking at the two best QBs in the game playing for the Championship and the narrative is very different, the narrative is can you win without a top 3 QB. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 18, 2021 Share Posted February 18, 2021 I think probably 5 times in the Super Bowl era has the best QB in the league won the Super Bowl. Brady wasn’t the best QB in the league in literally any of his Super Bowl wins, and the year he was the best QB in the league, he lost to Eli ****ing Manning. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemike778 Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 21 hours ago, Outpost31 said: I think probably 5 times in the Super Bowl era has the best QB in the league won the Super Bowl. Brady wasn’t the best QB in the league in literally any of his Super Bowl wins, and the year he was the best QB in the league, he lost to Eli ****ing Manning. How many times has the clear cut best pass rush defence in the league won the superbowl - not the number two but best (as a comparison to your point above). Genuine question I don't know. The best defence usually doesn't win either - the Rams were ranked 1 in defence. Like I said, we were maybe a cancelled training session away from the superbowl being Rodgers v Mahones, the two best QBs in the league and probably the best argument for 'the QB is all that matters' there has been. Which obviously would be completely wrong but just the way the year turned out. There are a lot of ways to win a Championship but they need to fit together. Relying on a superstar QB is fine as long as you can protect him from the kind of pass rush Mahones and Rodgers came across. Relying on your pass rush is fine as long as they don't get stonewalled by a pair of elite tackles and can score some points. Relying on an unstoppable run game is fine as long as your defence can do their bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 13 minutes ago, mikemike778 said: How many times has the clear cut best pass rush defence in the league won the superbowl - not the number two but best (as a comparison to your point above). Genuine question I don't know. The best defence usually doesn't win either - the Rams were ranked 1 in defence. Like I said, we were maybe a cancelled training session away from the superbowl being Rodgers v Mahones, the two best QBs in the league and probably the best argument for 'the QB is all that matters' there has been. Which obviously would be completely wrong but just the way the year turned out. There are a lot of ways to win a Championship but they need to fit together. Relying on a superstar QB is fine as long as you can protect him from the kind of pass rush Mahones and Rodgers came across. Relying on your pass rush is fine as long as they don't get stonewalled by a pair of elite tackles and can score some points. Relying on an unstoppable run game is fine as long as your defence can do their bit. You’re right, it takes balance. You can’t have a great defense and a crap QB. Just ask the Bears. However! You can win the Super Bowl with bad to okay quarterbacks and great defenses. There has never been a great QB to win a Supwr Bowl with a bad defense. Ever. You need the defense first, then the QB. If you did one of those math graph things that I don’t know how to do, you’d find that every Super Bowl team is near the following: Defense, QB cap hit. They would all be in the area like a bullseye that says, “This is how you win Super Bowls.” 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brat&Beer Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 Panthers continue cutting to create cap space. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30929419/source-carolina-panthers-release-starting-safety-tre-boston Quote The release of Pro Bowl defensive tackle Kawann Short on Wednesday and of defensive end Stephen Weatherly, safety Tre Boston and punter Michael Palardy on Friday improved the team's cap space to $28.473 million heading into the start of free agency next month. Boston's release won't be official until the league year starts March 17, with a post-June 1 designation, according to a source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refugee Posted February 19, 2021 Share Posted February 19, 2021 33 minutes ago, Brat&Beer said: Panthers continue cutting to create cap space. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30929419/source-carolina-panthers-release-starting-safety-tre-boston This is a good buyer's market year for the teams that have the space. A good year to rebuild if you have some cap and draft picks. I still feel like there will also be good value short term contracts to be found, especially if teams don't go for the big names, not that anyone is discussing that here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikemike778 Posted February 20, 2021 Share Posted February 20, 2021 4 hours ago, Outpost31 said: You’re right, it takes balance. You can’t have a great defense and a crap QB. Just ask the Bears. However! You can win the Super Bowl with bad to okay quarterbacks and great defenses. There has never been a great QB to win a Supwr Bowl with a bad defense. Ever. You need the defense first, then the QB. If you did one of those math graph things that I don’t know how to do, you’d find that every Super Bowl team is near the following: Defense, QB cap hit. They would all be in the area like a bullseye that says, “This is how you win Super Bowls.” Its difficult to win a super bowl with a bad QB. You can win a championship with an okay QB and a great defence. But likewise you can win a championship with a great QB and an okay defence. Really you want one of the two to be great and the other to be at least OK. Its not easy to get a great defence. It seems like every year (apart from last year), we throw every premium pick at defence, we have invested in expensive free agents, we have churned DCs and still can't crack it. Last year we had a great QB and okay defence and that may have done the trick but for the training ground accident - we'll never know but we weren't far off. The last thing I want us to do is ruin the offence to chase the great defence. Because recent history says, we probably wont get that great defence and ruining the offence ruins the team. If you have a great QB you are in a fantastic spot to win championships over someone who hasn't regardless of the QB cap hit. Likewise if you have a fantastic defence you are in a great spot. The problem is when you have an OK QB on a huge cap hit. That's a real problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted February 21, 2021 Author Share Posted February 21, 2021 Michael Balko - The Bears are the favorites to sign JJ Watt, per a source close to the situation. Brandon Carwile - We can now safely remove the Bears from the JJ Watt sweepstakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brat&Beer Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 So I was wondering who the heck Michael Balko was. Found this https://sportscastr.com/stream/59930533 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted February 21, 2021 Share Posted February 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Brat&Beer said: So I was wondering who the heck Michael Balko was. Found this https://sportscastr.com/stream/59930533 Anyone else have a hard time getting past the **** on his face? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brat&Beer Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 Could Watt be more affordable than some people think? https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/watts-quiet-free-agent-market-could-benefit-packers “He’s not in a hurry because he’s not getting the offers he wants,” a source said. Werder reported Watt’s priorities were a quarterback, supporting cast and money, in that order. However, the longer Watt remains a free agent, the less the chance he receives anything even in the ballpark of the $17.5 million he passed up by being granted his release from the Houston Texans 10 days ago. At the time, a source believed Watt would get a contract worth in the neighborhood of $10 million to $12 million per season. That’s looking more and more unlikely, though, the source said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kampfgeist Posted February 23, 2021 Share Posted February 23, 2021 On 2/20/2021 at 8:09 PM, Leader said: Michael Balko - The Bears are the favorites to sign JJ Watt, per a source close to the situation. Brandon Carwile - We can now safely remove the Bears from the JJ Watt sweepstakes. Well they definitely have the QB he desires so seems the most logical place to go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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