Jake Ryan, pass coverage, and the future of the Packers ILB position

[AlexGreen#20]

I've wanted to do a piece on the evaluation of ILBs in the second decade of the 21st century for a long time now. Much of my notes and thoughts on this subject extend from that area of interest. I've yet to actually finish writing this piece because I've never had any real prompting to do so. I've finally found my muse on this topic with so much discussion of Jake Ryan going on in the 2015 Packers Draft Thread. 

So here's what I've put together.

Off-Ball Linebackers in 21st Century Football

There was a time when "Off-Ball Linebackers" were the face of a defense. Offenses ran the football more, and they ran the football inside out of the I-formation with far more frequency in the 1980s and 1990s than even the most risk adverse offenses do today. The Fullback was a full time starter and not a utility player brought in for situational plays. Defenses ran 4-DB Base Defenses with a frequency that would startle most observant NFL fans of 2018. 2 TE looks and 2 Back looks were the preferred personnel groupings for offenses. Offenses weren't run first units, but there was significantly more balance than there is in the 2010s. 

By nature of their position, Off Ball Linebackers are primarily run defenders. They have coverage and blitzing responsibility, but they aren't every down rushers, nor are they every down coverage guys. Their job is to read and to flow to the ball. The majority of their coverage assignments are dropping into zones and trying to play passing lanes by watching a QBs eyes and discouraging throws over their head. The second most common assignment is coming forward to tackle a ball carrier who's catching a ball in a surrendered zone that the defense is comfortable with a completed pass. Some coverages will require running with a Tight End or a Back, but Box Safeties and Nickel Backs are quickly taking over that role unless the guys playing Inside Linebacker are studs in coverage. Defensive Backs are smaller, which correlates to being quicker and better in coverage. 

As Offenses develop and continue to become more pass happy, you're seeing DBs taking over more and more snaps. Just about every team now runs a 6-man front group the majority of the time. You end up with 2 DTs, 2 Edge Rushers, and 2 Off-Ball Linebackers. That breakdown is consistent regardless of Base Front. The difference that you see in the Base Front is whether the DB steps in for a DT or an Off-Ball Linebacker. Both run stuffing DTs and Off-Ball Linebackers are being hunted into extinction by bigger defensive backs playing Box Safety. There's an additional DB on the field on 20% more plays just since 2012. I'd go back further, but Football Outsiders doesn't have full snap data available to the public going back that far.

You see the league's perceptive value of the Off-Ball Linebacker continuing to fall in other ways. They fall into the lower class of NFL Defenders (along with Safeties) based on pay per position. This is only taking the Top-5 players at each position, but it paints the picture that Inside Linebackers, even dominant ones, aren't pulling elite money. That trend extends out to the Top-20 at each position breakdown but that's the farthest I've ever bother to take it while examining the salary data.

We see a similar break down based on draft capital spent. Edge Rushers and Corners carry a strong lead over the rest of the positions. Inside Linebackers are the lowest tier here. There's just not a love for them in the first round.

It's with the following information in mind that I draw the conclusion that the ILB position is the least valuable on the defensive side of the ball. For certain it's the least valued by teams when assigning resources to filling positions 

All of this seems to be a very round about way of getting to the Packers group of players. I think most agree that Blake Martinez is the long term starter at one of the ILB positions. His play this year was statistically that of a very good linebacker. His bullet point resume for the season looks as follows:

• 3rd in the NFL in Solo Tackles
• 6th among Off-Ball Linebackers in TFL
• 1 INT
• 1 Sack
• 1 FF
• 2 FR
• He finished ranked 23 among ILB by Pro Football Focus*

That's all-around a very good player. Also very important, the contract is a big help to the team for the remainder of his rookie deal. His cap hit in 2018 is a measley $725,848. In 2019 it's $815,848. He becomes a Free Agent in 2020, so barring a catastrophic injury, Blake Martinez will be one of your ILBs for the next two seasons. 

The question then becomes who is playing next to Martinez?  

Jake Ryan's future in this league and role in this defense in 2018 is going to be an interesting one. Unless you REALLY love Joe Thomas, Jake Ryan is the second most talented pure ILB on this roster. What that means regarding the future of the defense remains unknown. Both Morgan Burnett and Josh Jones played Inside Linebacker snaps in 2017 and that remains a viable option going forward. Additionally there's the option of the draft, but there's a lot of need at high impact positions to be shopping at ILB when you have decent options already available. Roquan Smith is a name that's been floated, but seems to be far less popular of an option than any of the Edge guys.

There seems to be a prevailing forum opinion that Jake Ryan is a JAG who isn't a starting caliber player in this league. Maybe I'm letting the vocal minority sway my perception of the board's opinion, but that's the attitude I tend to read the most. 

The most common criticism seems to be that Ryan is too slow and unathletic to play ILB in the NFL in 2018, specifically in coverage aspects. I want to question that assumption because Jake Ryan isn't  bad athlete. He's a slightly above average athlete for the ILB position. There's a ton of love for the Inside Linebacker group in Minnesota, and they're both damn good players, Barr in particular but the Packers group isn't a slow group by any stretch of the imagination. I'm going to put up the 40/10/3 cone numbers of 4 linebackers that I want everyone to keep in mind the next time they want to rip on Ryan being a plodder, because it's not an opinion that's really founded in reality.

Jake Ryan (4.65/1.62/7.11)

Anthony Barr (4.66/1.67/6.82)

Eric Kendricks (4.61/1.57/7.14)

Blake Martinez (4.71/1.61/6.98)

I'm not going on record saying that Jake Ryan is an elite athlete or a great cover guy, because that's not the argument that I'm making, but he sure as **** seems to be good enough to live with while you build up a pass rush that seemed punchless for large portions of the season. Ryan isn't even a bad cover guy on the field. I think a large potion of his reputation was formed his rookie season when he was a rookie who was physically and mentally slower than the player that he is after a few years of working with NFL coaching. He was lousy as a rookie, no doubt, but ILB isn't a position that makes a ton of impact plays to draw the eye to change an opinion formed.

His year in 2016 was pretty darn solid. PFF listed him as their 3rd most improved rookie to Sophomore in 2016. This is the blurb:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-the-10-most-improved-second-year-players

Quote

 

2015 overall grade: 42.5

2016 overall grade: 76.4

Ryan struggled in 2015 after taking over the starting inside linebacker role from Nate Palmer. His weakness proved to be in pass coverage, allowing 83.3 percent of targets thrown his way to be caught for a passer rating of 135.5, or around 30 points higher than the average for linebackers. It wasn’t just coverage, though, with few real impact plays in any area, including just one solitary hurry on the blitz. 2016 saw him jump from a 42.5 grade to 76.4 thanks to cleaning up his pass coverage and making strides against the run, too, recording a stop on 9.8 percent of all run plays and missing only two tackles all season.

 

 

Obviously Pro Football Focus needs to be taken with a large grain of salt, but according to their metrics, similar strides were made in 2017. Ryan finished the year ranked as their 17th best Inside Linebacker, ahead of Blake Martinez. I find that idea to be difficult to accept on it's face, but the idea that Jake Ryan actually might not suck is one that doesn't offend sensibilities at it's suggestion. 

Some of their game by game breakdowns

Bucs/Steelers/Vikings

Quote

Ryan played really well against the pass. He was targeted twice in the game, and both times managed to beat the screen blocker to make a quick tackle as both passes went for a combined two yards. He added two pressures as a pass-rusher, and three stops in run defense, for five defensive stops in the game overall.

Quote

 

The third year linebacker out of Michigan played an all around solid game. He limited Steelers receivers to 16 yards on the three receptions he surrendered in coverage, which led to a coverage grade of 83.6, behind only Damarious Randall for the team lead. Ryan was also respectable in run defense, recording two stops. The entire defensive unit struggled to tackle the elusive Le’veon Bell and other Steeler playmakers as they missed 10 tackles on the night.

 

Quote

The Packers defense certainly did enough to win the game for the home team, and the effort was led by inside linebacker Jake Ryan. He amassed nine solo tackles, including an impressive eight run stops, posting a monstrous 24.2 run-stop percentage for the week. Ryan was solid in coverage as well, yielding just a passer rating of 79.2 on two targets. This was easily the best game of the his young career, and Ryan now ranks fourth in run-stop percentage for the season.

 

Again, I want to reitterate, I'm not saying that Jake Ryan is a star, but I do feel like he's a positive piece to this defense and not a problem piece. He's definitely not a piece, that I feel deserves to be thrown away or have his replacement actively sought out with premium capital. This just seems like a guy who has developed into a player that deserves to be playing. I certainly feel like the decision routinely made by Capers to keep Ryan off the field in favor of a dime package featuring a rookie Josh Jones and Marwin Evans/Jermaine Whitehad against 11 Personnel was a terrible decision. 

Obviously Pettine is going to have to make calls on the field but the middle of this defense seems strong if Morgan Burnett is brought back. It's the perimeter that needs help, and I hope that's where the Front Office efforts and the capital will be spent.

 

 

[squire12]

Now I can't wait for the rest.   Nice tease and cliff hanger.

[TheOnlyThing]

Let me begin by stating that I sincerely hope that all the work you have put in to advocating for Jake Ryan turns out to be correct and he breaks out next year once he is free of all things Dom. If that occurs, you will have been proven right.

But I have little faith that will take place for a number of reasons.

First, harkening back to Ryan's combine numbers as a basis for why he is more than a JAG reminds me of what transpired when the first whispers began about AJ Hawk's awesome testing results not really translating on to the field for the Pack. The retort from those who were always confident that Hawk was just about to bust out was always, yeah but AJ had great combine numbers (much better than Ryan's if I recall), so don't worry about what you're seeing on the field. Anyway, whatever the workout numbers say, after 3 seasons, Ryan's athleticism has not exactly shone through on the field.

Second, I think Ryan is precisely the type of LB that is being phased out of the game as you describe in such detail above. His strength is obviously defending against the run where he is certainly OK,. But in the passing game? 3 years in and he has 1 sack. And 0 interceptions. And if I'm reading his stats correctly, he had 0 passes defensed this season along with 0 in 2015 (though he had 3 in 2016). Given those numbers after 3 years, I just wonder what has Jake done that makes you think he is anything but a JAG? 

Third, and here is something that for some reason gets overlooked, Ryan does not exhibit the instincts of a + inside backer. Instead, he looks like a former defensive lineman who was moved to LB when it became apparent he just did not have the size to play D line. Thus, rather than attacking plays like a Kuechly or Hightower or even Blake Martinez, Ryan reacts to the action around him.

Fourth, if Ryan was playing a secondary ILB role to a great athlete who covered ground like a Bobby Wagner or KJ Wright, you might be able to get by with Jake. But that is not the case.

As you know Alex, you and I vehemently disagreed over who was going to be the better player as soon as Martinez was drafted and the reason I was so high on Martinez was not because he is a superior athlete, he isn't, but rather because of the instincts Blake displayed playing inside linebacker in a conference that threw the ball, and threw to RBs, constantly. Martinez, despite not even being as athletic as Ryan according to the combine numbers you cite, just has such superior instincts for the position compared to Ryan that it was hardly surprising that the Pack gave Blake the starting nod over 2nd year player Ryan (complete with play calling responsibilities) when he was a rookie. Heck, before Joe Thomas got injured in the home game against the Bears this season, he was getting a fair amount of snaps ahead of Ryan -- Jake played just 10% of the snaps against Seattle in the opener and 29% of the snaps against the Falcons in game 2.

Moreover, I think if Blake were paired with a truly athletically superior inside linebacker then the Pack would have quite a tandem for years to come, though as you say at a position that is perhaps devalued.

Finally, since we're citing the oft-maligned PFF to pump up Jake, I'd thought I'd toss this season grade out from McGinn:

JAKE RYAN (48%): Has just three turnover-producing plays in 1,525 snaps from scrimmage. Overachieving tough guy with a quick trigger to the ball. Had 69 fewer tackles than Blake Martinez but actually made more tackles per snap (one every 5.7; Martinez made one every 6.2). Ryan is a two-down run player who is more effective moving forward than laterally. He’s a step slow. Missed nine tackles, three more than last season. Liability in coverage. Bites too much on play-action, lacks precision and depth in zone drops and can get exposed one-on-one. Often injured, has yet to play a 16-game season. Grade: C.

PS you wrote, "There's a ton of love for the Inside Linebacker group in Minnesota, and they're both damn good players, Barr in particular but the Packers group isn't a slow group by any stretch of the imagination." Do you really consider Anthony Barr to be an inside linebacker comparable to a Blake Martinez or a Jake Ryan? If so, why? 

[Pilprin]

Whereas I agree with you assessment that the Packers need more help on the edge, I differ with you on Roquan Smith. He is a difference maker. I doubt he will be available, but if he is there it would be so hard to watch GB pass him up. Of the games I watched this past year, Smith, Chubb, and Minkah Fitzpatrick were the three guys that just pop off the screen. Its possible that none will be there at 14, but if one would slide...we need to grab them IMHO.

Statistics don't lie, but Ryan does NOT pass the eye test.

[OneTwoSixFive]

I recall Ryan played OLB in college before switching to ILB, and while he wasn't Josh Jones fast (4.41 40 time), he isn't a slouch. I remember the draft blurb on him at the time. He wasn't lauded for his speed, but he was generally considered to be one of the most cerebral ILBs in that draft. I thought at the time of the draft he was a fine pickup - do you remember the ILB quality back then ?

I'm thinking that going forward, Martinez and Ryan are fine at the ILB position. A big part of my comfort factor is that Josh Jones is also in the wings. He has not played well so far, certainly not starter-level, but he has good size (220lb when drafted), plus  that serious, superior speed, and he likes to hit. I'm hoping that with a year under his belt, the game will begin to slow down enough for him to shine. With him subbing in and out depending on the down and distance, Ryan can play the early downs more, with Jones dealing with the more obvious pass plays. It gives the Packers more options for matchups and the versatility to change the coverage type. Jones should be in a good place within the ILB group, since Ryan is known as a film junkie and both he and Martinez are instinctive. I see great possibilities in a Ryan-to-Jones mentoring, like Woodson to Collins (and Pettine likes to employ a 'buddy' system to bring players up to speed).

I have read that others are unhappy enough at the ILB position to suggest picking up the Georgia ILB Roquan Smith, in round one. A pick like that should improve the ILB unit, just as a high pick almost anywhere would improve that unit, but I certainly don't think the improvement would be anywhere near the best use of a first round (#14) selection. I'd go for a pass rusher or WR or CB before that (maybe an OT as well), depending on how the draft pans out.

Bleacher report on Ryan pre-draft
A versatile linebacker with experience on the outside before moving to inside linebacker in 2014, Jake Ryan brings big-tackle production to the NFL. A true downhill player who closes on the ball and moves well enough in space to change direction and get outside the tackle box, he has experience in coverage and has shown the hips and feet work there. Coaches we spoke to raved about Ryan's work ethic, football IQ and leadership.

another by NFL.com
 Transitioned from outside to inside in 2014. Highly productive downhill tackler. Has burst to the ball. Gap-responsible and tackles through his targets. Possesses straight-line speed to chase from sideline to sideline. Second-effort worker. Good in zone coverage. Team captain. Known as a prolific film-eater who spent hours studying and learning offensive tendencies with defensive coordinator. Can play multiple linebacker spots and can fit in just about every scheme.

The biggest complaint I read on Ryan pre-draft, was that he tended to stay wired to blocks too long before disengaging. I am not qualified enough to say whether he has shaken that habit or not.

[AlexGreen#20]

6 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Let me begin by stating that I sincerely hope that all the work you have put in to advocating for Jake Ryan turns out to be correct and he breaks out next year once he is free of all things Dom. If that occurs, you will have been proven right.

But I have little faith that will take place for a number of reasons.

First, harkening back to Ryan's combine numbers as a basis for why he is more than a JAG reminds me of what transpired when the first whispers began about AJ Hawk's awesome testing results not really translating on to the field for the Pack. The retort from those who were always confident that Hawk was just about to bust out was always, yeah but AJ had great combine numbers (much better than Ryan's if I recall), so don't worry about what you're seeing on the field. Anyway, whatever the workout numbers say, after 3 seasons, Ryan's athleticism has not exactly shone through on the field.

Second, I think Ryan is precisely the type of LB that is being phased out of the game as you describe in such detail above. His strength is obviously defending against the run where he is certainly OK,. But in the passing game? 3 years in and he has 1 sack. And 0 interceptions. And if I'm reading his stats correctly, he had 0 passes defensed this season along with 0 in 2015 (though he had 3 in 2016). Given those numbers after 3 years, I just wonder what has Jake done that makes you think he is anything but a JAG? 

Third, and here is something that for some reason gets overlooked, Ryan does not exhibit the instincts of a + inside backer. Instead, he looks like a former defensive lineman who was moved to LB when it became apparent he just did not have the size to play D line. Thus, rather than attacking plays like a Kuechly or Hightower or even Blake Martinez, Ryan reacts to the action around him.

Fourth, if Ryan was playing a secondary ILB role to a great athlete who covered ground like a Bobby Wagner or KJ Wright, you might be able to get by with Jake. But that is not the case.

As you know Alex, you and I vehemently disagreed over who was going to be the better player as soon as Martinez was drafted and the reason I was so high on Martinez was not because he is a superior athlete, he isn't, but rather because of the instincts Blake displayed playing inside linebacker in a conference that threw the ball, and threw to RBs, constantly. Martinez, despite not even being as athletic as Ryan according to the combine numbers you cite, just has such superior instincts for the position compared to Ryan that it was hardly surprising that the Pack gave Blake the starting nod over 2nd year player Ryan (complete with play calling responsibilities) when he was a rookie. Heck, before Joe Thomas got injured in the home game against the Bears this season, he was getting a fair amount of snaps ahead of Ryan -- Jake played just 10% of the snaps against Seattle in the opener and 29% of the snaps against the Falcons in game 2.

Moreover, I think if Blake were paired with a truly athletically superior inside linebacker then the Pack would have quite a tandem for years to come, though as you say at a position that is perhaps devalued.

Finally, since we're citing the oft-maligned PFF to pump up Jake, I'd thought I'd toss this season grade out from McGinn:

JAKE RYAN (48%): Has just three turnover-producing plays in 1,525 snaps from scrimmage. Overachieving tough guy with a quick trigger to the ball. Had 69 fewer tackles than Blake Martinez but actually made more tackles per snap (one every 5.7; Martinez made one every 6.2). Ryan is a two-down run player who is more effective moving forward than laterally. He’s a step slow. Missed nine tackles, three more than last season. Liability in coverage. Bites too much on play-action, lacks precision and depth in zone drops and can get exposed one-on-one. Often injured, has yet to play a 16-game season. Grade: C.

PS you wrote, "There's a ton of love for the Inside Linebacker group in Minnesota, and they're both damn good players, Barr in particular but the Packers group isn't a slow group by any stretch of the imagination." Do you really consider Anthony Barr to be an inside linebacker comparable to a Blake Martinez or a Jake Ryan? If so, why? 

My responses are as follows:

What constitutes "breaking out"? Nobody is advocating that Ryan is going to turn into a superstar overnight. The case is that Jake Ryan is a piece in the puzzle that can contribute to this team, rather than being a guy that we need to be spending resources to attempt to upgrade. If Ryan is an average ILB like the case has been made that he has been for the last two seasons, that wouldn't constitute breaking out, that would barely be a blip on the record? They're aren't tertiary rankings of players of Scrub, Average, Star, there's a huge swathe of gray that doesn't seem to be being accounted for. Steady improvements in that gray area aren't being accounted for is one of the primary points of what I've written.

Ryan's combine numbers were not stated as the counterpoint for the basis that he is not a JAG. Unlike several members of this board, I'm not going to cite athletic numbers at most positions to form an opinion. The argument is that the highly valued speed numbers at the ILB position are not anything that makes sense to live or die on. There's no reason to look at Ryan as an athlete and player and not think that he's capable of doing the far less stressful coverage roles that come with playing his position. I'm all for pulling Ryan in the Dime and Pressure Packages and putting in a Kentrell Brice. The athleticism isn't the issue, it's his reads and diagnosing speed. Even with those limitations however, Ryan's primary role of coming up and tackling on checkdowns is one that he's played well at. That is going to make up the majority of the passing snaps that he's going to play.

I think you mischaracterize Ryan's ability against both the run and the pass. Against the run, Ryan has been a really good player the last few seasons, His Run Stop Percentage (Run Stops/Opportunities) has been in the top 20 among NFL Defenders in each of the last two years. This is a good linebacker between the Tackles. For all the complaints about his instincts, he's finding the ball in the run game at a pretty high level. He's got more Tackles/Run Snap and more Stops/Run Snap than Martinez did this year. I'm not saying he's David Harris, but to portray him as "Okay" in the run game I believe to be underselling him. The idea that he's a Defensive End who's simply wandering around lost is just an incorrect opinion.

Again, it's not like the modern Inside Linebacker is being asked to turn and run with receivers, and it's definitely not a good way to evaluate them based off of PDs and INTs. The majority of Ryan's role in the passing game is dropping back quickly and trying to bat down balls thrown to receivers on slants and deep ins. If that ball isn't thrown, his next step is coming up and making a tackle on the back being checked down to. I can't speak to the former objectively, but Ryan was good flowing to the ball this year.  

If you want to look at the stats on running back receiving, the Packers allowed 48.4 yards per game to RBs receiving. The NFL average was 44.1. A big portion of that production came against the Panthers where they had 82 yards receiving from backs, and Ryan had nothing to do with the first disastrous drive where Burnett, Jones, and Martinez all got scorched. More importantly though, a god damn pass rush turns some of these check downs into sacks. That's a big part of our issues.

I think you underrate Martinez as well when you cite him as not a guy like Bobby Wagner or KJ Wright. We'll have to see next year but certainly the production was competitive between the trio. Whether Martinez can maintain or build on his performance remains to be seen, but this year he was certainly in the running. 

What do the stats look like this year between the three:

Wagner: 96 solo/14 TFL/2 sacks/6 PD/2 INT/0 FF

Martinez: 96 solo/12 TFL/1 sack/8 PD/1 INT/1 FF

Wright: 72 Solo/6 TFL/0 sacks/6 PD/1 INT/0 FF

With contracts in hand, you take Martinez everyday out of the week of that trio.

I can't see McGinn's writing because he has it locked behind a paywall. If someone wants to get a screenshot of it, I'm happy to read it over, but isn't what McGinn and I are saying meshing on the run game points, "Quick to the ball", "High tackles/snap"? I even agree with a few of the points in the passing game, primarily the "Handles Play Action Poorly". With all that acknowledged, there are maybe a handful of ILB in the league that aren't prone to getting beat one v one by a RB or a TE. 

Again, I'm not saying that Ryan is a star, but I question whether the resources required to upgrade him make any god damn sense. He's a good run defender and a mediocre cover guy, pull him on 3rd down for a safety, or keep him off the field more against passing teams, but why does upgrading him with a first round Inside Linebacker with one year of production make sense?

Why wouldn't I compare Martinez and Barr? After all, they play the same position. Barr blitzes a helluva lot more, but both carry similar responsibilities.

Martinez: 96 solo/12 TFL/1 sack/8 PD/1 INT/1 FF

Barr: 52 solo/10 TFL/1 sack/6 PD/0 INT/0 FF

I'm not going to sit here and claim that Martinez is a better player than Barr, but Martinez had a statistically phenomenal season.

[MacReady]

Am I the only one who wants to respond to TOT by saying, "If the Packers had Aaron Rodgers and another Hall of Fame QB, we could put two quarterbacks on the field at a time and make defenses cover against two quarterbacks." 

I just don't understand how some people can be so incapable of perspective.  People act like, "Athletically superior inside linebackers" grow on trees and / or are readily available at any position in the draft. 

It's a very simple series of deductions.  You use your highest investments on the most important positions.  If you get lucky on a later investment, great!  If not, tough titties, you go for the more important positions. 

[Packerraymond]

To me this breaks down pretty simply. I'm not going to say Ryan couldn't be improved upon. However, Im not going to actively seeking improvement for him at the expense of another position. Every dollar you spend on FA or a pick you use is one you can't use to improve the pass rush, DBs, pass catchers and OL.

We can win a SB with Jake Ryan at ILB, we are not winning SBs with last year's pass rush or DBs.

[squire12]

22 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

To me this breaks down pretty simply. I'm not going to say Ryan couldn't be improved upon. However, Im not going to actively seeking improvement for him at the expense of another position. Every dollar you spend on FA or a pick you use is one you can't use to improve the pass rush, DBs, pass catchers and OL.

We can win a SB with Jake Ryan at ILB, we are not winning SBs with last year's pass rush or DBs.

Allocation of resources.  Salary cap, draft picks.  Only a finite amount of each to use, so use them wisely.

[TheOnlyThing]

3 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

The case is that Jake Ryan is a piece in the puzzle that can contribute to this team, rather than being a guy that we need to be spending resources to attempt to upgrade. I

 I'm all for pulling Ryan in the Dime and Pressure Packages 

Again, it's not like the modern Inside Linebacker is being asked to turn and run with receivers, and it's definitely not a good way to evaluate them based off of PDs and INTs. The majority of Ryan's role in the passing game is dropping back quickly and trying to bat down balls thrown to receivers on slants and deep ins. 

Why wouldn't I compare Martinez and Barr? After all, they play the same position. Barr blitzes a helluva lot more, but both carry similar responsibilities.

My contention was and remains that Ryan is a JAG. You obviously disagree. Hopefully, in 2018 Jake's play convinces all Packer fans he is as valuable as you believe him to be.

I will even concede that, if paired with a really top notch inside linebacker, a team probably could get by with Jake as the other inside backer and still have a good defense.

However, while I am and have been a Martinez fan since the day he was drafted and I certainly think he is already better than Ryan will ever be, the problem at ILB for Green Bay is that Blake also has his shortcomings. And, unfortunately, Martinez's athletic limitations are only compounded when paired with "a step slow" and "liability in coverage" guy like Ryan. 

As for your contention that looking at passes defensed it is not a good way to evaluate an ILBs play, that is belied by your statement that Ryan's role is "trying to bat down balls thrown to receivers on slants and deep ins." I agree that is his role, I merely pointed out that in 2 of his 3 years Jake has not batted down or tipped or touched a single ball. 

I also keep reading that ILB is an unimportant position such that the team need only stock the position with middling players. Now, I certainly agree that OLB and CB are far more important on balance, but I don't understand the notion that ILB should just be consigned to a bunch of JAGs. 

To elaborate on this point, and this is one for Packer fans to really noodle over, I keep seeing comparisons made between our ILBs and Barr and Kendricks in Minnesota (which is why I asked if you contend Barr plays the same position). Some have argued, apparently echoing what the previous GM and or DC apparently thought of the position, that allocating a 1st or 2nd round pick to the ILB position is completely foolish. Yet, the Vikings D, which features a (high) 1st round and mid-2nd round pick at ILB, has somehow prospered despite that "unwise" allocation of resources. 

I am not advocating that a high draft pick must be used on an ILBer. I am stating that if a stud ILBer is available, passing on him in order to continue trotting out the likes of a Jake Ryan because that is supposedly a better allocation of resources is the type of foolishness that has led to the Packers D being so mediocre to bad for so long.

I'll leave this subject now with a prediction: Even if he is healthy all season and assuming the other ILBs are not all wiped out by injury, Jake Ryan will see considerably FEWER snaps at ILB in 2018 than he did in 2017. You can certainly let me know how wrong I was about Jake if that does not turn out to be the case.

[MacReady]

2 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Every dollar you spend on FA or a pick you use is one you can't use to improve the pass rush, DBs, pass catchers and OL.

Why don't people understand this VERY EFFING SIMPLE CONCEPT?

What happened to them in childhood that stunted their ability to grasp this concept?  It is the simplest concept to grasp, and yet it eludes so many people here you'd think it was as complicated as rocket science. 

[AlexGreen#20]

Jatavis Brown, Hayes Pullard, Kyle Emmanuel, Denzel Perryman, and Korey Toomer were the LB corps of the 3rd best defense in the league this year, and you don't think that a Martinez/Ryan duo could ever be a part of a good defense?

How are you defining Martinez's athletic liabilities? What do you think the average NFL LB's athletic profile looks like? The Saints have an ILB group of Craig Robertson, Manti Te'o and AJ Klein. 40 times of Te'o: 4.82. Roberts 4.75 (at his pro day) and Klein 4.66. That was a top 10 defense this year. The idea that LBs need to run a sub 4.5 40 is simply insane.

When you drop into coverage to try and discourage a throw, you make the QB throw over you. You're not going to bat many of them down. The goal is to make the QB throw elsewhere because he can't get it over your head. Even the best ILBs had fewer than 9 PDs and those were guys that played 95+% of snaps. Ryan playing 45ish% primarily on run downs is not going to lead to a lot of passes deflected.

The Vikings have two ELITE players in their secondary and have built a great pass rush out of middle draft picks. That's how they can afford to spend a lot of draft capital at the ILB position. This has been established in dozens of other threads.

I would be shocked if Ryan played in fewer than 30% of the Packers defensive snaps in 2018. Pettine is not a sub package guy to nearly the extent that Capers is. Obviously the NFL is an unpredictable line of work, but Ryan is going to be in line for more snaps, not fewer.

 

[cannondale]

There is only one answer to finding out exactly what we have.

For the love of God add some needle moving talent somewhere...anywhere

Defensive Coordinator: Short term, this has to turn out to be our biggest acquisition. Rookies are rookies and I can't imagine making more than one worthy signing on this side of the ball. If we draft Davenport, for example, Perry and Matthews are still the starters, unless Matthews gets kicked inside, which I would have done 3 years ago. Pettine has to somehow stabliize this thing until we can add some pieces

CB: Wasn't it just yesterday we had more cornerbacks than we knew what to do with ? Three high picks and a FA signing later, still no answer if we have a No. 1 corner on the roster. Unacceptable if you want to field a formidable defense. I may projectile vomit if we draft another one in the first round.

OLB: I'm not as big a fan of Perry as some, but it is what it is. This position has been talked about at nauseum. A needle mover here would be awesome if Pettine can utilize everyone.

S: All hinges on whether Burnett is re-signed. I think we have to. Then we have to move him back to full time S to try to stabilize that position and HHCD. Pettine needs to figure this out asap

DL: I'm no expert but if fans are correct, we have the most talented invisible DL in the universe. Pettine needs to find a way to free these guys if they are so talented

Fix this stuff and we can know for sure what we have at ILB.  Simple yeah ?

[AlexGreen#20]

6 minutes ago, cannondale said:

DL: I'm no expert but if fans are correct, we have the most talented invisible DL in the universe. Pettine needs to find a way to free these guys if they are so talented

Fix this stuff and we can know for sure what we have at ILB.  Simple yeah ?

What are your expectations for your DL? We were 9th in yards allowed against the run (with in what seems to be your opinion poor ILB play) and got 9.5 sacks out of our starting DL duo. The Vikings got 5.5 out of theirs. The Bears got 10. The Lions got 5.

I know it's boring but our issues were at CB and OLB last year.

[cannondale]

10 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

What are your expectations for your DL? We were 9th in yards allowed against the run (with in what seems to be your opinion poor ILB play) and got 9.5 sacks out of our starting DL duo. The Vikings got 5.5 out of theirs. The Bears got 10. The Lions got 5.

I know it's boring but our issues were at CB and OLB last year.

Straight up based on the eye test. Lots of games where they are invisible and you never hear their name. LIS I'm no expert, and no way I expect the same results as the Seattle game every week, but long stretches where you hear nothing.

If one of the issues is OLB, and Perry is under rated - are you saying all the problems are related to Clay ?