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Jake Ryan, pass coverage, and the future of the Packers ILB position


AlexGreen#20

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On 2/2/2018 at 11:46 AM, CWood21 said:

You move Clay inside full-time, that means you need TWO more pass rushers.  Given that quality pass rushers don't really become available in FA, that means you're using your picks to do so.

I don't know much about Pettine defenses history but should we even be expecting to have players in all the same roles as in Capers defense like 2 "rush" OLB?  I don't think you necessarily need to move Clay inside but I don't see Pettine having him line up on the edge and going at it with OT 90% of the game.  Pettine talked about taking advantage of Clay's versatility and in that case if he moved off the ball would we necessarily need a rush OLB to replace him or more of a 5t type?  Has anyone studied Pettines Bills/Browns defenses to have any idea what we should expect?

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5 hours ago, Stevein2012 said:

I don't know much about Pettine defenses history but should we even be expecting to have players in all the same roles as in Capers defense like 2 "rush" OLB?  I don't think you necessarily need to move Clay inside but I don't see Pettine having him line up on the edge and going at it with OT 90% of the game.  Pettine talked about taking advantage of Clay's versatility and in that case if he moved off the ball would we necessarily need a rush OLB to replace him or more of a 5t type?  Has anyone studied Pettines Bills/Browns defenses to have any idea what we should expect?

You're gonna need two starting caliber edge guys no matter who's defense you're playing. Good defenses have three. 

 

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1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

You're gonna need two starting caliber edge guys no matter who's defense you're playing. Good defenses have three. 

 

Regardless of that I guess the question is, is the defense better off with Clay in more of a moving around playmaking role taking advantage of his versatility or sitting on the edge slamming heads with an OT all game?

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7 hours ago, Stevein2012 said:

Regardless of that I guess the question is, is the defense better off with Clay in more of a moving around playmaking role taking advantage of his versatility or sitting on the edge slamming heads with an OT all game?

It isn't one or the other. It's about finding the right balance for the offense you're playing and having the horses to do what you need to do.

Even in Capers defense, Clay was taking a lot of his snaps from the "ILB spots" in the pressure package. You likely would have seen a lot more of that if there was another edge rusher worth a damn to play on the front line, or if the CBs could cover anybody to force more pressure package snaps.

Until you find an OLB that can eat 700 snaps at an average level, I just don't see how you can move Clay to a different spot on standard downs. A pressure 4 of Lowry/Fackrell-Clark-Daniels-Perry just isn't going to get it done. It's extremely difficult to survive with no pass rushing punch from one of your Edge spots.

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1 hour ago, cannondale said:

What is everyone's take on Gilbert's brief, but seemingly positive stint ?

I'd be wary of 'fresh legs" having the biggest bearing on his late season success.  I think you have to see him carry into camp and thru the preseason before you can be sure he might be legit.

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17 hours ago, Stevein2012 said:

I don't know much about Pettine defenses history but should we even be expecting to have players in all the same roles as in Capers defense like 2 "rush" OLB?  I don't think you necessarily need to move Clay inside but I don't see Pettine having him line up on the edge and going at it with OT 90% of the game.  Pettine talked about taking advantage of Clay's versatility and in that case if he moved off the ball would we necessarily need a rush OLB to replace him or more of a 5t type?  Has anyone studied Pettines Bills/Browns defenses to have any idea what we should expect?

At the end of the day, you still need pass rushers.  If you're moving Clay into a non-rush role, than someone has to take those snaps.  Who are you giving those snaps to?  Pettine's talk about Clay tells me he's their "#3" pass rusher, and he'll be moved around like a chess piece rather than keeping him at one position snap after snap.  Maybe @AlexGreen#20 can speak more from a schematic standpoint.

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10 hours ago, Stevein2012 said:

Regardless of that I guess the question is, is the defense better off with Clay in more of a moving around playmaking role taking advantage of his versatility or sitting on the edge slamming heads with an OT all game?

It's not just an X or Y question.  There's more to that question.  Even if the Packers are "better off" with Clay as an off-ball LB, you still have to replace those snaps that he gave you last year.  And you're already looking to improve upon Ahmad Brooks and Kyler Fackrell, so you have to invest even more into that position.  That's why Clay will be an OLB next year who gets some ILB snaps possibly.

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1 hour ago, CWood21 said:

It's not just an X or Y question.  There's more to that question.  Even if the Packers are "better off" with Clay as an off-ball LB, you still have to replace those snaps that he gave you last year.  And you're already looking to improve upon Ahmad Brooks and Kyler Fackrell, so you have to invest even more into that position.  That's why Clay will be an OLB next year who gets some ILB snaps possibly.

I guess I'm mostly just trying to understand Pettine's defense compared to Capers.  It's obvious we need a starting caliber edge no matter what happens with Clay but does it have to be an OLB type or can we also look at edge DE's?  I know there is not always much of a distinction between the two but over the past few years the team has clearly targeted more of the OLB types.  Or should we just expect everyones positions/responsibilites to be exacly the same as last year?

Just looking at the 2013 Bills they had Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes but Hughes played in every game and only hit 52% snaps.  Who was their other edge guy?

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21 hours ago, Stevein2012 said:

I guess I'm mostly just trying to understand Pettine's defense compared to Capers.  It's obvious we need a starting caliber edge no matter what happens with Clay but does it have to be an OLB type or can we also look at edge DE's?  I know there is not always much of a distinction between the two but over the past few years the team has clearly targeted more of the OLB types.  Or should we just expect everyones positions/responsibilites to be exacly the same as last year?

Just looking at the 2013 Bills they had Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes but Hughes played in every game and only hit 52% snaps.  Who was their other edge guy?

I think the biggest difference between Caper and Pettine is that we kept looking for players to 'fit' Capers scheme.  Pettine looks more at the tools at his disposal and how to get the most out of them.  Don't draft to fit scheme anymore- draft playmakers and trust Pettine to use them in their strengths. That being said, we still need pass rushers.

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On 2/8/2018 at 12:36 PM, Stevein2012 said:

I guess I'm mostly just trying to understand Pettine's defense compared to Capers.  It's obvious we need a starting caliber edge no matter what happens with Clay but does it have to be an OLB type or can we also look at edge DE's?  I know there is not always much of a distinction between the two but over the past few years the team has clearly targeted more of the OLB types.  Or should we just expect everyones positions/responsibilites to be exacly the same as last year?

Just looking at the 2013 Bills they had Mario Williams and Jerry Hughes but Hughes played in every game and only hit 52% snaps.  Who was their other edge guy?

Mario and Hughes played the majority of their snaps but they also played Alex Carrington, Arthur Moats, and Manny Lawson, though Lawson played a fair amount inside. The lack of a 3rd guy to carry those heavy snaps is really what hurt that group, though a bad offense didn't help. 

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