TecmoSuperJoe Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 This argument doesn't make sense from the jump, regardless of what side of it you are on. Comparing quarterbacks across different eras is nonsensical. Now it's spilled into like three threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 50 minutes ago, PapaShogun said: This argument doesn't make sense from the jump, regardless of what side of it you are on. Comparing quarterbacks across different eras is nonsensical. Now it's spilled into like three threads. I'll just reiterate what I have said before about this.....no wait, screw that.....I'm not reiterating anything, I'll just copy and paste it. Quote What's missing are the rule change discrepancies between the two QB's during their respective era's and how much of those rules have played a part in their success. There is absolutely no debate that rules over the years have leaned heavily toward the offensive side of ball. The point is, I don't care how many "stats" you have, you simply CANNOT account for the major differences between two different eras without speculating, I don't care how you slice it. --2 point conversions --Neutral zone infraction --The five-yard contact rule (which has been HIGHLY enforced) --Hits with the helmet or to the head by the defender will be flagged as personal fouls. --QB's allowed to have ear peices. FYI: the defense wasn't even allowed these until mid-2000(IIRC) - EDIT: just checked: 15 years LATER --Defensive players can't flinch at the LOS. A rule made to reduce false-start penalties. --Instant replay + extra challenge. Important note. FYI, this was WELL before the 4k, 1080p, 720p technology that we have now too. --Plays where a fumble recovery happened, ball were placed at the spot of the recovery NOT where momentum took them. --MUCH, MUCH more emphasis on protecting the QB. --A player who touches a pylon remains in-bounds until any part of his body touches the ground out-of-bounds. This wasn't allowed 30 years ago. Nowadays, the QB, WR &/or RB get "stat" credit for this...... --Horse-collar tackles banned! Defensive players had to play more careful. Meaning more of an advantage on the offensive side ofthe ball. --Unnecessary roughness emphasized. If a defensive player get's in a QB's face, it's an automatic penalty nowadays. --If the defensive team commits a dead ball foul following the end of the half, the offensive team may choose to extend the period for one more play. Previously, the half automatically ended without the defensive team being penalized. --No longer hitting a QB in the knee or below. Yeah Montana and others got hit ALOT this way during that time. --Down-by-contact became reviewable --Defense is was longer able to tackle players by the insides of the jersey's. Those of you who were old enough to watch the games know how often this happened. Especially if you go back and re-watch those games. --Speaking of which, no more spearing a "defenseless player".(as if that's not a subjective call or anything). Another example of "Don't blink wrong defense or you will get called for a penalty!" And I'm sure there's more than this.............(EDIT): Brady had it MUCH, MUCH easier. I almost forgot that Montana played in TWO division realignments and Brady only played in one during his 2nd year as a starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 the Patriots have the same win % against the "cup cake" AFC East as they do against out of division opponents. Has the entire NFL been a cup cake schedule to benefit the Pats for the last 18 years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 15 hours ago, LaserFocus said: The Patriots have had a cakewalk in the AFC East for years, and haven't had to deal with a consistently strong team like Baltimore in their own division. It's not their fault, just a reality of the situation. Losing three Super Bowls as a favorite isn't something to help in the GOAT context. And Montana didn't blow the biggest game of his career, like Brady did in SB42. The NFC in the 80s was also more difficult than the AFC during Brady's era. Let's also not forget Brady walked into a much better situation in NE than Joe did in SF, and the Chiefs haven't returned to the AFC TG since Montana's time there. In the GOAT context, we cannot reward losing three Super Bowls as favorites. The latest loss wasn't all Bardy's fault, but his accuracy was subpar, and make a huge mistake late. I think the fact that his team lost as favorites is more damning than just losing the Super Bowl, though not nearly as damning as it is in the NBA. That's the only reason why I ever bring up LeBron vs Jordan in these debates about the GOAT QB. LeBron only lost 1 final where his team was the favorite, the Miami vs Dallas series, in every other series they were the underdogs IIRC, while Jordan was always the favorite in the Finals and won every time as expected. Pretty sure Brady was only an underdog in 1 SB, maybe 2 in his career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buddyboy Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 Guessing that over 600 QBs have attempted to play the position in almost 100 years. Only since Luckman/Baugh/Graham, post WW II, have they played a position recognizable to modern fans. QB rankings only deal with the top 100 that have gained elite status with longevity. As Brady has been the most recent championship QB of the past 15 years he tends to get fan rankings as the GOAT or the Best Athlete in History. Even Brady's coach knows he ranks about 10th. No sure how anyone can rank all NFL players. Impact on the game seems like a marketing concept. Luckman retired in 1950, Baugh in 1952, Graham in 1955. John Unitas best years were 1957 to 1965. Bart Starr was the GOAT in the late 1960. Norm Van Brocklin played from 1948 to 1960. Impact on the game? Otto Graham went on to coach at the Coast Guard Academy and retired an Admiral. Google Admiral Graham with President Reagan. 1960s Browns QB Frank Ryan won titles and had a math PhD. Jim Brown was the finest RB in leahue history on the same team with Ryan. Bart Starr went on to coach the 1970s Packers. For pure QB efficiency, Starr and Montana are probably the best. Bob Griese of the Shula Dolphins led them to three SBs, winning two with a perfect season. Fran Tarkenton played 18 seasons and 3 SBs on Grants championship Vikings. For younger fans, highlights are not sufficient. Brady is a top 10/600 QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger Posted February 9, 2018 Share Posted February 9, 2018 On 2/6/2018 at 8:09 PM, lod01 said: Imagine the 49ers in this decade. Smoking Belicheck/Brady yearly. They were a superior team (to any Pats team) in a decade where you could punish a QB with brutal hits and not get flagged. They faced incredible competition vs the Giants , Redskins and for one year the Bears a (with one of the greatest Ds in history). The NFL championship back then WAS the SB. The SB was a simply a sacrifice of an AFC team to the NFC champion. You take the 80's/early 90s 49ers and put them in the AFC East over the last 2 decades, with no punishing the QB and Montana has more than 5 SBs. There's no way of knowing that at all. And as Bill Parcels always says "You are what your record says you are." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 Here's a QB chart from our friends at Football Outsiders Scroll down to playoff passing DVOA. Pretty impressive for Joe Cool... http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/postseason-qb-stats-2017-update Lots of good playoff info here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 13 minutes ago, Shanedorf said: Here's a QB chart from our friends at Football Outsiders Scroll down to playoff passing DVOA. Pretty impressive for Joe Cool... http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/postseason-qb-stats-2017-update Lots of good playoff info here That's a very intriguing name at the top of that list. Wish the Dolphins would have pulled their heads out of their ***** for once and made that happen this past season instead of coaxing a washed up QB out of retirement whose prior season ended with shoulder surgery on his throwing arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 On 2/7/2018 at 5:27 PM, Carmen Cygni said: It's a dumb argument because the two best QBs are Marino and Manning. Also, W/L is not a QB stat so comparing Super Bowl records is irrelevant. #QBwinz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Issue Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 I think we all need to agree to differentiate between "best" and "greatest" and discuss the topic solely on one term or another. One argument covers all the tangibles and intangibles on the field at his best. What you see when he plays. His talent. It's an eyeball test. The other argument covers the above and also accounts for everything off the field. The wins and losses. The stats. The awards. The accomplishments. The records. The lasting legacy and impact. So, for example, Bo Jackson may have been the best running back you have ever seen. But you can't call him the greatest runningback of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Issue Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 That being said, for me, the best QB ever is probably either Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers. Because both could kill you in the pocket with their accuracy, touch, and football IQ. Both were great at extending plays and could make the tough throw on the move outside the pocket. And both had live feet and could move the chains with a quick scramble on the regular. At their best, their balance couldnt be defended. Of the two I lean more towards Aaron Rodgers. Because I think he has everything Steve Young had, but has a laser rocket arm that Young never had. Not to say Young didnt have a live arm. But Aaron Rodgers could do things with his arm that Young could only dream of. And as far as the greatest QB goes, to me, its a no brainer. It's tom Brady. Nobody else has the resume Tom Brady has. Tom Brady is the Jerry Rice of QBs. He has accomplished things no other QB has, or probably ever will. And, on top of that, is a hell of a QB. At his age, with all of his experience behind center, he is like a maestro. He is an absolute master at his craft. He reminds me of the old guys that play racquetball. I used to play racquetball quite a bit when I was younger. And I would occasionally play with some old timer looking for a game. And I would come in all young and in shape and ready to destroy this old man figuring there is no way he is going to be able to keep up with me. And I would get completely demolished. Because he has played so long he knows all the angles. All the tricks. He would practically stand mid court and run me ragged. Back and forth. Left and right. Have me chasing my own tail. Thats where Tom Brady is. His arm might not be as good as it was. His legs might not be as good as they were. But he can compensate through experience. And use all of that to run defenses ragged. He is the greatest. I just dont see any other argument that makes sense. And it has been a pleasure to watch his career. It has been one for the ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 11:22 AM, Non-Issue said: And as far as the greatest QB goes, to me, its a no brainer. It's tom Brady. Nobody else has the resume Tom Brady has. Tom Brady is the Jerry Rice of QBs. He has accomplished things no other QB has, or probably ever will. The only things Brady has accomplished that no other QB will, are team related achievements. If you want to go by individual statistics, then he falls short of quite a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-Issue Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 On 2/11/2018 at 3:18 PM, Carmen Cygni said: The only things Brady has accomplished that no other QB will, are team related achievements. If you want to go by individual statistics, then he falls short of quite a few. And, in the frame of this argument, that is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apparition Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 On 2/11/2018 at 3:18 PM, Carmen Cygni said: The only things Brady has accomplished that no other QB will, are team related achievements. If you want to go by individual statistics, then he falls short of quite a few. Can you say with any confidence that he won't end up #1 in most record books for individual stats? He's really not far off in any of them. Probably needs to play no more than 2 more years to surpass Manning in passing TDs and yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmen Cygni Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 2 minutes ago, Starless said: Can you say with any confidence that he won't end up #1 in most record books for individual stats? He's really not far off in any of them. Probably needs to play no more than 2 more years to surpass Manning in passing TDs and yards. Meh, 2 or 3 more years than Manning needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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