Venom

[INbengalfan]

Finally saw it last night.  I was entertained.  The action sequences were more than fine.  Other than the cheesy dialogue, I think this movie only got so much hate because it wasn't part of a greater universe, and had to start from scratch. It was clearly better than Spiderman 3 with McGuire.  

 

Sometimes I think we get too spoiled with what Feige has crafted, and nothing else is going to compare.  

[JonStark]

Saw it last night. It was good, but not near what I was hoping it could've been with the R rating. 

Hardy and the relationship between him and venom were both awesome. Other than that, wasn't much special about it. Man this sequel has potential if Carnage is done right, and he still COULD be at PG-13, but the odds are pretty low. Especially after that quote from Arad. Carnage needs to be a villian like the Joker from TDK. No back story, I don't need to feel for him. He should be feared and they should focus on what he is, not how he got there. 

[KManX89]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:19 AM, JonStark said:

Man this sequel has potential if Carnage is done right, and he still COULD be at PG-13, but the odds are pretty low. 

Avi Arad has made it perfectly clear he's gonna ruin Carnage and turn him into Carnage In Name Only. Remember, this is the same guy pitching the character who pushed his own grandma down the stairs, killed his dog with a drill, pushed a girl into a bus, lit an entire orphanage on fire and murdered dozens of people en route to being taken over by a violent alien substance in which he viciously mutilates people in the most graphic detail possible and threw a baby down a 5 story building as "family friendly", which shows HE doesn't know the comics. ? 

How Arad still has a job after saying this **** is beyond me, he's the EPITOME of R-rated. Hell, Logan should've been PG-13 before a Carnage movie.

[JonStark]

31 minutes ago, KManX89 said:

Avi Arad has made it perfectly clear he's gonna ruin Carnage and turn him into Carnage In Name Only. Remember, this is the same guy pitching the character who pushed his own grandma down the stairs, killed his dog with a drill, pushed a girl into a bus, lit an entire orphanage on fire and murdered dozens of people en route to being taken over by a violent alien substance in which he viciously mutilates people in the most graphic detail possible and threw a baby down a 5 story building as "family friendly", which shows HE doesn't know the comics. ? 

How Arad still has a job after saying this **** is beyond me, he's the EPITOME of R-rated. Hell, Logan should've been PG-13 before a Carnage movie. 

You don't NEED obscene graphic detail to get the character across. Would it help? Absolutely, but it could still be done justice without the R rating. Ledger's Joker is one of the best villains of all time, and they were able to completely nail the character in a PG-13 movie.  You could include all of those examples you listed in the movie without actually showing them (or just briefly showing or hinting at them). It should be rated R, but there is still a minute possibility that the character could be fine if the director handles it right. 

That being said, making a character that the audience is going to feel for or relate to in any way won't work (as I originally said). That's the main issue I have. 

[Fresh Prince]

Could they make it work without showing any of that? Sure but none wants that.

[43M]

9 hours ago, JonStark said:

You don't NEED obscene graphic detail to get the character across. Would it help? Absolutely, but it could still be done justice without the R rating. Ledger's Joker is one of the best villains of all time, and they were able to completely nail the character in a PG-13 movie.  You could include all of those examples you listed in the movie without actually showing them (or just briefly showing or hinting at them). It should be rated R, but there is still a minute possibility that the character could be fine if the director handles it right. 

That being said, making a character that the audience is going to feel for or relate to in any way won't work (as I originally said). That's the main issue I have. 

Ledger put on an iconic performance and it was directed buy one of the best in Hollywood. And while the Joker is obviously very violent, he is more known for the chaos he creates then just pure violence like Carnage is known for.

The lack of an R rating already hurt Venom, so creating a PG-13 Carnage is going to be a joke. You want to know the best you can hope for with a PG-13 Carnage? See Mortal Kombat or any of the Resident Evil movies. I'm not someone who needs needless violence to keep me entertained... But when it's something that's widely known and loved in large part due to it's brutality... You can't kiddify it.

[Ragnarok]

The whole point of Carnage is exactly that.  Pure, unbridled cruelty and carnage.  There's little to no psychological aim like with the Joker.  He just wants to hurt people.  That's it.  I really don't know how you show this in a PG-13 setting.  At least with the Joker, you can focus more on that psychological fear aspect and trying to prove a point.  Carnage doesn't have that.  There's no point to prove but the enjoyment in harming people in an extremely graphic manner.  

It takes a symbiote this extreme, and horrifying, to cause Venom to become something close to an antihero in the first place.  So being a big time comic book nerd, I really struggle finding a way to get Venom to that point without having a villain so evil that he essentially has no choice.  

If they do Carnage, Cletus Kasady needs to take a childlike glee in the pain he causes.  Anything less would be cheating the character beyond what he was always meant to be.  

[KManX89]

Just now, Ragnarok said:

The whole point of Carnage is exactly that.  Pure, unbridled cruelty and carnage.  There's little to no psychological aim like with the Joker.  He just wants to hurt people.  That's it.  I really don't know how you show this in a PG-13 setting.  At least with the Joker, you can focus more on that psychological fear aspect and trying to prove a point.  Carnage doesn't have that.  There's no point to prove but the enjoyment in harming people in an extremely graphic manner.  

It takes a symbiote this extreme, and horrifying, to cause Venom to become something close to an antihero in the first place.  So being a big time comic book nerd, I really struggle finding a way to get Venom to that point without having a villain so evil that he essentially has no choice.  

If they do Carnage, Cletus Kasady needs to take a childlike glee in the pain he causes.  Anything less would be cheating the character beyond what he was always meant to be.  

This. It would be like trying to make a PG-13 Nightmare on Elm Street or Friday the 13th: not having Freddy or Jason torture and eviscerate people for the sick pleasure of it misses the whole point of those characters.

Arad just inspires so much confidence in a Carnage movie with these comments, doesn't he? Can't wait to see Carnage stab push people and decapitate push people and maybe if we're lucky, we'll get to see a really gruesome scene of Carnage ripping someone in half and then devouring them pushing someone, that'll be a barn burner. 

Oh, and @FourThreeMafia, the Resident Evil live action films were R-rated BTW. Granted, they weren't very good (even looking past the HUGE liberties taken with the source material, I'm looking at you, Paul W.S. Anderson), especially the last one, but they weren't kiddified.

[Deadpulse]

As much as carnage is an r-rated character, you can still do him justice in a pg-13 setting IMO. It would be hard, but a good team could make it work. Honestly Carnage has more of a following on the cartoon from the 90s then the actual comic depictions of him. 

[KManX89]

On 10/28/2018 at 3:32 AM, Deadpulse said:

As much as carnage is an r-rated character, you can still do him justice in a pg-13 setting IMO. It would be hard, but a good team could make it work. Honestly Carnage has more of a following on the cartoon from the 90s then the actual comic depictions of him. 

Uh huh, because a movie about a guy who pushed his grandmother down the steps and killing her, drilled his mother's dog's brains out after attempting to murder her by dropping a hair dryer in a bathtub and then go on a massive killing spree after all that supposedly "not R" material, including burning down an orphanage before he finally puts on the red symbiote and starts massacring people in vomit-inducing ways just for fun, which includes him literally ripping their guts out and sawing them in half is totally in the ballpark of PG-13 material. What are they gonna do during fight/action scenes to get around this, have Carnage push people (because they sure as hell can't have him physically dismember people on-screen in a PG-13 movie, with or without being visibly gory)? Oh wait, who am I kidding? That's exactly what they're gonna do, just like they did with Riot to avoid that pesky R rating (and that's literally all he did, which isn't much of a spoiler at this point).

And appearing in a kid's cartoon isn't comparable to this. Punisher was also in the 90's Spider-Man cartoon and there's no way he'd work with anything less than an R in a movie. Deadpool's also had animated appearances and he can't be done justice with a PG-13 film, either (yes, I know it's happening, but it's technically an edit). Making Venom PG-13 was one thing, but kiddifying Carnage is such a radical departure from the character that he might as well not even bear the name. He does need R-rated levels of violence and gore in order to have his concept (a vicious mass-murdering psychopath bonded with a violent alien substance, making him EVEN MORE unstable than before) executed properly, it's part of his character. It's almost like saying the Punisher shouldn't be anything less than the gun-totting vigilante who guns down and tortures gangsters John Wick-style that we've always known him to be and as the creators always intended him to be. FFS, they literally say on the cover that it's not for kids as I pointed out on the last page.

And no, I don't NEED to see that stuff to be entertained, it's about respecting the source material. Oh, and speaking of respect of material, Wesley Snipes is in talks with Marvel/Disney about bringing Blade, another R-rated property to phase 4 of the MCU with two potential projects fresh off the heels of Disney saying they'll allow Deadpool to remain R-rated in the MCU. That says a lot about Sony's bungling of CBMs (or virtually anything that's not gaming or original films) when a KID'S company is better about handling ADULT properties than they are. Can't wait to see a nonviolent serial killer who doesn't stab people and a vampire who can't bite, that's gonna be epic. 

[MacReady]

@KManX89, Where did Disney say Deadpool would continue to be rated R?  I really don't want Deadpool in the MCU.  Don't want 20+ movies to suddenly start breaking the fourth wall. 

[KManX89]

@Outpost31 Bob Iger said Deadpool will be allowed to remain R-rated after the first Disney-Fox buyout happened. And like I said, they're in talks with Wesley Snipes about bringing Blade to the MCU, so yes, they are open to R-rated CBMs. Funny, I was told Marvel/Disney wouldn't go for an R-rated Carnage, either if they got the rights back. 

But yeah, Carnage will work with a PG-13 about as well as a Teen-rated Deadpool game or a PG-13 Nightmare on Elm Street: not very (read: not at all). Sony are really starting to give WB a run for their money as far as who can butcher their comic book properties more. They better release an R-rated director's cut on Blu-Ray because I won't pay to see this neutered Carnage in theaters. Then maybe, MAYBE I'll Redbox it. Other than that, it ain't gettin' my money.

Oh, and Arad:

How the hell this guy still has a job after saying this **** is beyond me. What a tool. 

[MacReady]

Oh, cool, thanks.  So it didn't confirm that Deadpool would become part of MCU, just that Deadpool movies could still be R.

One thing I'm still just a little confused about because I can't really tell, are you saying you're upset about a Carnage movie being PG-13?

[Deadpulse]

On 11/3/2018 at 2:46 PM, KManX89 said:

And appearing in a kid's cartoon isn't comparable to this. Punisher was also in the 90's Spider-Man cartoon and there's no way he'd work with anything less than an R in a movie.

I think you missed my point for mentioning it. As I said in my post, he has more of a following from his stints on the 90s show than from the actual comics. They're is a reason he can never get an ongoing.. well ongoing. He is a niche commodity that not even all hardcore's like. While comic sales are not a good indicator of film sales (see GoTG) but you gotta think Sony is looking at that. Casuals and most movie goers in their mid to late twenties and beyond will remember him more for his stints on that cartoon show. I think they'll use that as a model because its the easy decision to make. Not saying I like it, but it makes sense logically.