2018 Free Agency - Prospects for GB

[TheOnlyThing]

Fun to read, in a thread entitled -- "2018 Free Agency - Prospects for GB," about the never-ending debate over the impact the previous GM's drafting had on the defensive-side of the ball during the past several seasons.

It seems that some folks continue to question whether the likes of Datone Jones, Damarious Randall, Jerel Worthy, Quinten Rollins, Khyri Thornton, and Kyler Fackrell were worthy of their selections (in rounds 1-3). They even posit that the Pack's defensive woes have been due, at least in part, to (in their view) the previous GM's less-than-stellar drafting on the defensive side of the ball (the side on which he spent the vast majority of his draft capital between 2011-2017).

Conversely, true fans of the previous GM insist the above-listed picks and the man who made them are beyond reproach. Moreover, for these fans, any perceived lack of production from these 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks must be attributed to (i) Dom's ineptitude, (ii) injuries, (iii) bad luck, etc. and never, ever to the previous GM's decision to select them in the first place. 

As for me, I'm just glad the NFL finally lifted its prohibition on the Packers pursuing veteran free agents (and even relented and allowed the team to make a trade involving actual players) rather than requiring the franchise to build its roster almost exclusively through the draft and by signing undrafted free agents.   

[AlexGreen#20]

19 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

So you disagree entirely with the premise our defense got less athletic? I don't get your point here. I've heard you say that we aren't athletic but now you're fighting me saying that.

I'm not fighting the idea that we got less athletic. I'm fighting the notion that there was a philosophical change.

Our UDFA CBs are still the same toolsy athletes they've always been. It's just a matter that none of them have panned out into Shields/Tramon.

Woodson was signed in the pre Superbowl era but Peppers and the athletes at TE were signed in the maligned period you're talking about.

Raji and Hawk were top 10 picks like we haven't had in an eternity. 

+++

The NFL has gotten exceptionally good at spotting difference maker potential on defense. Nobody is sneaking out of the top 45 picks who is a difference maker at a high impact position.

[JBURGE]

30 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

The NFL has gotten exceptionally good at spotting difference maker potential on defense. Nobody is sneaking out of the top 45 picks who is a difference maker at a high impact position.

Well, some do. But the majority of them have character or medical red flags

[Packerraymond]

30 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I'm not fighting the idea that we got less athletic. I'm fighting the notion that there was a philosophical change.

Our UDFA CBs are still the same toolsy athletes they've always been. It's just a matter that none of them have panned out into Shields/Tramon.

Woodson was signed in the pre Superbowl era but Peppers and the athletes at TE were signed in the maligned period you're talking about.

Raji and Hawk were top 10 picks like we haven't had in an eternity. 

+++

The NFL has gotten exceptionally good at spotting difference maker potential on defense. Nobody is sneaking out of the top 45 picks who is a difference maker at a high impact position.

I think a lot of evidence points to our shift in wanting defensive versatility as the #1 desire. At least that's my opinion.

[Shanedorf]

40 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

I think a lot of evidence points to our shift in wanting defensive versatility as the #1 desire.

Not sure if its the # 1 desire, but the new DC talks about it quite frequently in his press conferences.

Versatile defenders can handle multiple roles - makes it easier when facing a hurry up offense

Versatile defenders help manage the roster in case somebody breaks a chin strap

Versatile defenders make it harder for the QB to identify the defense pre-snap

Versatile defenders  give the DC a lot of flexibility in calling his defense

Tune it at the 4 minute mark for more on how the new DC values versatility in his defenders

 

 

[Packerraymond]

18 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Not sure if its the # 1 desire, but the new DC talks about it quite frequently in his press conferences.

Versatile defenders can handle multiple roles - makes it easier when facing a hurry up offense

Versatile defenders help manage the roster in case somebody breaks a chin strap

Versatile defenders make it harder for the QB to identify the defense pre-snap

Versatile defenders  give the DC a lot of flexibility in calling his defense

Tune it at the 4 minute mark for more on how the new DC values versatility in his defenders

 

 

Of course it's good to be versatile. It's when you've built an entire defense around a jack of all trades, master of none roster that you're going to struggle. 

[squire12]

2 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Of course it's good to be versatile. It's when you've built an entire defense around a jack of all trades, master of none roster that you're going to struggle. 

SO was that a TT think or a Capers thing?

[Packerraymond]

3 hours ago, squire12 said:

SO was that a TT think or a Capers thing?

Had to be TT IMO. Think it was his reaction to the injury bug that kept biting. Tried to have guys that could play multiple spots so we could sub around higher level guys. Problem was none of them were truly great at anything and weren't overly athletic. 

Dom's downfall was perfectly showcased by Hyde and Hayward. NFL execs saw some things they did well and signed them to do exactly that. Dom was always a guy who basically said "this is the scheme we need you to play." 

[Arthur Penske]

8 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

Had to be TT IMO. Think it was his reaction to the injury bug that kept biting. Tried to have guys that could play multiple spots so we could sub around higher level guys. Problem was none of them were truly great at anything and weren't overly athletic. 

Dom's downfall was perfectly showcased by Hyde and Hayward. NFL execs saw some things they did well and signed them to do exactly that. Dom was always a guy who basically said "this is the scheme we need you to play." 

I don’t know. Maybe. I could be remembering this wrong But I seem to remember Brandon Chillar as the start of the versitale movement on defense and that was before the big injuries.  

[TheGreatZepp]

I think Capers had rolls and prototype players in his head and with TT they sought these and lost track of making the best of what they had and kept trying to make players fit these other roles. Yes, you want to play the scheme you know and installed but you have to be able to flex that scheme to play to your players strengths, it is no different than making adjustments during a game. This explains a bit why the Packers thrives when they had these prototype stars. Woodson, Raji, Pickett, Matthews, Tramon... their strengths fit the scheme. Daniels, Burnett, HaHa, Datone, Hayward, Hyde, Hawk these were players that have yet or never did reach their potential here because the scheme was never adjusted to play to their strengths. 

I think versatility is overplayed right now, I love versatility but that brings in the jack of all trades master of none. You need a full chess set! Everyone has their role and that role can be multifaceted but it is mostly a defined role. We don’t want Perry or Matthews dropping into coverage every play but we want to show it enough to make the game plan play into other player’s strengths.

[Shanedorf]

Fooling Around Friday :

Would you trade HaHa, Hundley and a 2nd to Seattle for Earl Thomas ? 

They reportedly wanted a 1st and a 3rd as their asking price. With a bevy of young corners, Thomas could be the glue to hold them all together on the back end

I'm not convinced HaHa is that guy. Not sure Seattle actually wants to move him, but GB offers something other teams can't: a viable Free Safety in return

Hundley might be a good fit at back-up for Seattle, he can run a similar offense as Wilson - so maybe there's some value there

They both are in line for new deals, much rather pay Thomas than HaHa and this move would bring GB a lot closer to the Championship defense that MM and Das Gute talked about this offseason.

[AlexGreen#20]

On 7/18/2018 at 9:33 PM, TheGreatZepp said:

I think Capers had rolls and prototype players in his head and with TT they sought these and lost track of making the best of what they had and kept trying to make players fit these other roles. Yes, you want to play the scheme you know and installed but you have to be able to flex that scheme to play to your players strengths, it is no different than making adjustments during a game. This explains a bit why the Packers thrives when they had these prototype stars. Woodson, Raji, Pickett, Matthews, Tramon... their strengths fit the scheme. Daniels, Burnett, HaHa, Datone, Hayward, Hyde, Hawk these were players that have yet or never did reach their potential here because the scheme was never adjusted to play to their strengths. 

I think versatility is overplayed right now, I love versatility but that brings in the jack of all trades master of none. You need a full chess set! Everyone has their role and that role can be multifaceted but it is mostly a defined role. We don’t want Perry or Matthews dropping into coverage every play but we want to show it enough to make the game plan play into other player’s strengths.

Daniels is the embodiment of a guy who reached his potential and has even overachieved

[AlexGreen#20]

28 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

Fooling Around Friday :

Would you trade HaHa, Hundley and a 2nd to Seattle for Earl Thomas ? 

They reportedly wanted a 1st and a 3rd as their asking price. With a bevy of young corners, Thomas could be the glue to hold them all together on the back end

I'm not convinced HaHa is that guy. Not sure Seattle actually wants to move him, but GB offers something other teams can't: a viable Free Safety in return

Hundley might be a good fit at back-up for Seattle, he can run a similar offense as Wilson - so maybe there's some value there

They both are in line for new deals, much rather pay Thomas than HaHa and this move would bring GB a lot closer to the Championship defense that MM and Das Gute talked about this offseason.

**** no, Earl Thomas is 29

[Norm]

I seriously wouldn't give haha for him at this point. I know that's super homer stupid but I truly believe he'll be the better player over the next few

[SSG]

2 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Fooling Around Friday :

Would you trade HaHa, Hundley and a 2nd to Seattle for Earl Thomas ? 

They reportedly wanted a 1st and a 3rd as their asking price. With a bevy of young corners, Thomas could be the glue to hold them all together on the back end

I'm not convinced HaHa is that guy. Not sure Seattle actually wants to move him, but GB offers something other teams can't: a viable Free Safety in return

Hundley might be a good fit at back-up for Seattle, he can run a similar offense as Wilson - so maybe there's some value there

They both are in line for new deals, much rather pay Thomas than HaHa and this move would bring GB a lot closer to the Championship defense that MM and Das Gute talked about this offseason.

Without hesitation.  Ha Ha showed us last year that he's an extremely overrated football player.  A long term contract with him scares the crap out of me given that he's shown the ability to just hit a switch and stop giving effort.  That's the sort of player that hits that same switch the second he secures that long term contract.  Our secondary had a lot of issues last year and HHCD was one of those issues.  If we're giving big money to a FS, I'd much rather have Thomas.  While a little older he's a substantially more talented football player who's better at every single aspect of playing FS.