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Best SB Winner Since 2010


mdonnelly21

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145 members have voted

  1. 1. Best SB Team Since 2010

    • Philly 2017/2018
      21
    • New England 2016/2017
      7
    • Denver 2015/2016
      7
    • New England 2014/2015
      9
    • Seattle 2013/2014
      65
    • Baltimore 2012/2013
      7
    • New York 2011/2012
      1
    • Green Bay 2010/2011
      22
    • New Orleans 2009/2010
      6


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Just now, Nzd07 said:

Actually, I would argue more casual fans would pick the best Patriots team on the list because of their success, not the other way around.

The Pats were really good, but 2013 Seattle was one of the best teams ever. As with the 1985 Bears 

DVOA agrees: 

DVOA of Champions 1950-2013 (estimated 1950-1988)
Rank Team Total DVOA Offense Defense ST
1 WAS 1991 56.9% 27.2% -21.1% 8.6%
2 GB 1962 47.9% 21.4% -20.7% 5.8%
3 GB 1961 46.0% 27.6% -11.6% 6.8%
4 CHI 1985 45.3% 12.5% -26.8% 6.0%
5 GB 1996 41.9% 15.2% -19.3% 7.4%
6 SEA 2013 40.0% 9.4% -25.8% 4.8%

I would disagree. Especially because the 2016 Patriots aren't even the best Patriots team ever. (04 and 07 teams were better, but this is a debate of this decade)

As far as DVOA goes, that doesn't take into account the fact that the GOAT QB didn't play in 25% of games that season.

 

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33 minutes ago, Darth Pees said:

I also wouldn't expect the 2013 Seahawks defense to blow a 28-3 lead, so there's also that. I don't know, you could probably compare them, but there's no way the 2016 Patriots secondary compares to the 2013 Seahawks secondary. Not on paper, not statistically, not in any way.

Yeah but it wasn't likely the 2013 Seahawks were going to get a 28-3 lead. The Atlanta Falcons had a historically great offense. Like I think it ranks 7 all time. The 2013 Seattle team was dominant, but was only really dominant on the defensive side of the ball. The 2016 and 2014 Patriots ranked in the top 3 in ppg on both offense and defense both years. 

I think people have to remember that the Super Bowl was outliers in both cases that season. Seattle wasn't routing teams like the Broncos all year (and the couple times they did those teams were terrible bottomfeeders) nor were the Patriots in 2016 finding themselves in holes all year. The Patriots lost twice that entire year. Once was with a 3rd string back up who couldn't score and once was ironically against Seattle in what came down to goal line situation. 

I think Bolt has it right, people look at it as less impressive because it just feels like a typical Patriots team. If you took the same situation and applied it to another team in the AFC it would be like "wow where did that team come from". The Patriots get compared to things like the 2007 Patriots where they routed everyone all year. When it's just a 12-4 to 14-2 season it just feels like another year. 

I think you could put the 2014 and 2016 Patriots teams against any Super Bowl team this decade and they'd compare favorably. More so even 2014 because they had both Gronk and Edelman and they had a deep defense that makes this years look pathetic.

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Just now, Bolts223 said:

I would disagree. Especially because the 2016 Patriots aren't even the best Patriots team ever. (04 and 07 teams were better, but this is debate of this decade)

As far as DVOA goes, that doesn't take into account the fact that the GOAT QB didn't play in 25% of games that season.

So what's your argument for the 2016 Patriots? Obviously at this point we know Garoppolo is really good. So, using the "won games without Brady" argument doesn't help all that much.

The point differential was a bit higher, but according to PFR, New England had a FAR easier schedule: 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2016.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2013.htm

And yes, while one game shouldn't define the argument, Seattle did absolutely demolish one of the most prolific offenses of all time.

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6 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

So what's your argument for the 2016 Patriots? Obviously at this point we know Garoppolo is really good. So, using the "won games without Brady" argument doesn't help all that much.

The point differential was a bit higher, but according to PFR, New England had a FAR easier schedule: 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2016.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2013.htm

And yes, while one game shouldn't define the argument, Seattle did absolutely demolish one of the most prolific offenses of all time.

It did..... but it was against a QB who had a track record of leading pretty proficient offenses and getting dominated in the playoffs. I know it's cliche, but Peyton Manning had a habit of seeing ghosts in big playoff games. Like that might not even have been the best Manning led team to get curbstomped in the playoffs.

I also think that game is weighed far more heavily when people think of that Seattle game. Like I said earlier in both 2013 and 2016 the Super Bowl's were more outlier games.

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Just now, lancerman said:

It did..... but it was against a QB who had a track record of leading pretty proficient offenses and getting dominated in the playoffs. I know it's cliche, but Peyton Manning had a habit of seeing ghosts in big playoff games. Like that might not even have been the best Manning led team to get curbstomped in the playoffs.

I also think that game is weighed far more heavily when people think of that Seattle game. Like I said earlier in both 2013 and 2016 the Super Bowl's were more outlier games.

Feels like you're just reaching a bit to discredit the 'Hawks by using the "Manning sucks in teh playoffs" argument. He had just come off a game where he torched the Patriots. That same Patriots defense picked off Andrew Luck 4 times the week prior.

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8 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

So what's your argument for the 2016 Patriots? Obviously at this point we know Garoppolo is really good. So, using the "won games without Brady" argument doesn't help all that much.

The point differential was a bit higher, but according to PFR, New England had a FAR easier schedule: 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2016.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2013.htm

And yes, while one game shouldn't define the argument, Seattle did absolutely demolish one of the most prolific offenses of all time.

Jimmy G only started 2 of those 4 games.

And let's be real: Jimmy G. is still a pretty far drop off from Brady. The dude has started like 7 NFL Games in his career?

And you do realize that the Seahawks aren't the only team that has ever demolished an historic Peyton Manning lead offense? Look at 2004, Peyton broke what was then the TD record at the time and put up 3-points against the Pats in the divisional round. Peyton has a history of doing that in the postseason.

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Just now, Nzd07 said:

Feels like you're just reaching a bit to discredit the 'Hawks by using the "Manning sucks in teh playoffs" argument. He had just come off a game where he torched the Patriots. That same Patriots defense picked off Andrew Luck 4 times the week prior.

How do I have to reach? Peyton Manning has not shown up in playoff games before, several times. The Seahawks game was just one of many times that this happened.

The 2013 Patriots is one of the worst Patriots teams in the Brady/Belichick era.

He put up 26 points and the Broncos defense stepped up big time in that game. That's hardly torching the Patriots. The Broncos only scored 24 points on an abysmal Chargers defense in the divisional round.

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Just now, Bolts223 said:

How do I have to reach? Peyton Manning has not shown up in playoff games before, several times. The Seahawks game was just one of many times that this happened.

The 2013 Patriots is one of the worst Patriots teams in the Brady/Belichick era.

He put up 26 points and the Broncos defense stepped up big time in that game. That's hardly torching the Patriots. The Broncos only scored 24 points on an abysmal Chargers defense in the divisional round.

Abysmal Chargers' defense that was 11th of 32 in points against? Might want to look up the definition of "abysmal"

The Patriots were 10th of 32 in points against. Manning went for 400 yards, 2 tds, on a 75% comp rate.

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Just now, Nzd07 said:

Abysmal Chargers' defense that was 11th of 32 in points against? Might want to look up the definition of "abysmal"

The Patriots were 10th of 32 in points against. Manning went for 400 yards, 2 tds, on a 75% comp rate.

Chargers offense that year dominated most opponents in TOP, which is why they were decent in points allowed.

 

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3 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

Feels like you're just reaching a bit to discredit the 'Hawks by using the "Manning sucks in teh playoffs" argument. He had just come off a game where he torched the Patriots. That same Patriots defense picked off Andrew Luck 4 times the week prior.

The 2013 Patriots might have been the WORST Patriots team of the decade and probably one of the bottom 3 Patriots teams of the Brady and Belichick era (02 and 09 being the only one's I'd say were conceivably worse). They were 20 in defensive DVOA. Also let's be honest, picking off Andrew Luck isn't a big thing. It kind of feels like your taking very circumstantial and singular events that were more outliers to make your argument. 

Peyton torched the 20th team in defensive DVOA. A team that on defense had their best pass rusher (Wilfork), 2 of their best linebackers (Spike and Mayo) on IR before the game. And their best corner (Talib) injured in the game. And let's not even get into the offense and what happened going into the year. Torching the Patriots that year wasn't very impressive. 

And yeah, I'm saying Manning crapping the bed in a playoff game has become more than a trend in this timeframe. Moreso when he comes in with a very dominant offense. 

And yeah I think a big part of the Seattle dominance has more to do with a perception built by what is clearly an outlier game compared to the season. Likewise I think the 2016 Patriots are getting dismissed because of a perception that they were lucky based off of a Super Bowl that was also an outlier when weighed against the rest of the season. 

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Just now, Bolts223 said:

Chargers offense that year dominated most opponents in TOP, which is why they were decent in points allowed.

 

Peyton didn't even play that bad versus them. And he still had an amazing game against the Patriots. Entire Broncos offense got shut down in 2013. They got one TD against backups at the end of the game. Seattle completely and utterly took their soul. Stop trying to discredit that, lol.

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Just now, lancerman said:

The 2013 Patriots might have been the WORST Patriots team of the decade and probably one of the bottom 3 Patriots teams of the Brady and Belichick era (02 and 09 being the only one's I'd say were conceivably worse). They were 20 in defensive DVOA. Also let's be honest, picking off Andrew Luck isn't a big thing. It kind of feels like your taking very circumstantial and singular events that were more outliers to make your argument. 

Peyton torched the 20th team in defensive DVOA. A team that on defense had their best pass rusher (Wilfork), 2 of their best linebackers (Spike and Mayo) on IR before the game. And their best corner (Talib) injured in the game. And let's not even get into the offense and what happened going into the year. Torching the Patriots that year wasn't very impressive. 

And yeah, I'm saying Manning crapping the bed in a playoff game has become more than a trend in this timeframe. Moreso when he comes in with a very dominant offense. 

And yeah I think a big part of the Seattle dominance has more to do with a perception built by what is clearly an outlier game compared to the season. Likewise I think the 2016 Patriots are getting dismissed because of a perception that they were lucky based off of a Super Bowl that was also an outlier when weighed against the rest of the season. 

And neither of you have presented an argument as to why New England was better. Seattle had a harder schedule. And if you want to bring DVOA into the conversation, you have to acknowledge the 2013 Broncos' insane 33.7% offensive DVOA.

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Just now, Nzd07 said:

Peyton didn't even play that bad versus them. And he still had an amazing game against the Patriots. Entire Broncos offense got shut down in 2013. They got one TD against backups at the end of the game. Seattle completely and utterly took their soul. Stop trying to discredit that, lol.

I'm not saying that Peyton played bad - I'm saying that the Broncos offense was averaging like 38 points a game in the regular season and they put up 24 and 26 points against below average defenses in the playoffs. The Broncos would not have made the SB if the defense didn't play extremely well in the first two rounds. (Both the Chargers and Patriots were pretty much shut out entirely on offense until the 4th quarter)

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Just now, Bolts223 said:

I'm not saying that Peyton played bad - I'm saying that the Broncos offense was averaging like 38 points a game in the regular season and they put up 24 and 26 points against below average defenses in the playoffs. The Broncos would not have made the SB if the defense didn't play extremely well in the first two rounds. (Both the Chargers and Patriots were pretty much shut out entirely on offense until the 4th quarter)

You can't prove your last point though. Perhaps if Denver didn't trust their defense they would've had more pass attempts and a higher ay/a. Coaches adjust.

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11 minutes ago, Nzd07 said:

You can't prove your last point though. Perhaps if Denver didn't trust their defense they would've had more pass attempts and a higher ay/a. Coaches adjust.

That's just the thing though - Denver's defense in 2013 was pretty bad, Von Miller was injured most of that season. If the Broncos coaches had any sort of brain (The coach was John Fox, so maybe you have a point) they would not trust that defense to win a game for them. 

They just happened to show up against the Chargers and Patriots. People forget that the Broncos defense is what kept Seattle from running away with that game in the first quarter. (Denver turned the ball over early, Broncos defense managed to keep them out of the end zone early in the game)

The Broncos were trying to throw the ball on the Chargers, they just didn't achieve as much success doing it as the normally did.

Anyways, this is beside the point.

There is precedent for Peyton Manning lead teams and Peyton Manning more specifically not showing up for big games in the playoffs. Seattle wasn't dominating teams like that consistently at any point in the regular season, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that SB game was an outlier for the Seahawks and that Peyton Manning did what he had done before in postseason games - choke.

 

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