The Pro Football Hall of Fame: Both Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer Deserve Consideration

[Norm]

2 minutes ago, Bob Fox said:

Norm, I put a link in the story about the 50th anniversary team, but here it is again. This list has been confirmed by Rick Gosselin.

 

 

Sorry I am working an auction today and hadn't clicked the link yet haha. Sorry and thanks.

[Norm]

Jesus just by memory damn near all those guys are HOFers. I expected to see more non HOFers

[ThatJerkDave]

I admit that I am too young to have watched the Lombardi era Packers.  Growing up in Green Bay, I heard a lot of the stories.  The problem is, I just can't believe that a single team had 15 Hall of Fame players at once.  Are there even 15 Hall of Fame players on any given year's All-Pro or Pro Bowl teams? Hall of Fame should be reserved for the best of the best.  For comparison, I googled the 90s Cowboys HOF players because that is the last dynasty that the league has seen (until the Patriots are not consistently making at least AFCCs), and the Cowboys FRANCHISE has 16 Hall of Famers, three of which are: Jerry Jones, Tex Stram, and Tom Landry; non players.  The 90s Cowboys boast:  Emmitt Smith, Troy Aikman, Michael Irvin, Charles Haley, Deion Sanders, and Larry Allen. 

The Hall of Fame needs to be more difficult to enter, not easier. 

[Bob Fox]

Here's something to ponder, did you know that they are more Oakland Raiders from the 1970s in the Pro Football Hall of Fame than those from the Pittsburgh Steelers from that same period. Even though the Steelers won four Super Bowls that decade and the Raiders won only one.

Here is the breakdown of the top teams with players/coaches/contributors in the Pro Football Hall of Fame:

Chicago Bears: 28

Green Bay Packers: 25

Pittsburgh Steelers: 21

Getting back to my story, it was spawned by the words of Rick Gosselin, who is a long-time Pro Football Hall of Fame voter, who also used to write for the Dallas Morning News for many, many years. This is what Gosselin said about Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer, the only two players not in Canton from the 50th anniversary team:

“Can you enshrine too many players from one franchise in the Hall of Fame? That’s the question that came up last week when those of us on the Hall of Fame selection committee enshrined the 12th member of the 1960’s Packers. That’s guard Jerry Kramer.

“That’s more than half of the starting lineup, plus the head coach from one team. A team that won five championships in a span of seven years. And went to six title games in a span of eight seasons. No team of any era, has more players in Canton than those 1960’s Packers.

“They have indeed been rewarded for their success. Should the committee now draw the line there with the Lombardi Packers? Well, ponder this. In 1969, this same Hall of Fame selection committee was commissioned to pick the greatest players in the game’s first 50 years.

“There were 45 players selected to that team. And 43 are now enshrined in Canton. Only two are not. They both played for the ’60’s Packers, split end Boyd Dowler and tight end Ron Kramer. Dowler was selected to the 1960’s All-Decade team as well and Kramer would have been had the committee selected more than one tight end.

“Yet neither of those players has ever been discussed as a finalist for the Hall of Fame. If you were chosen as one of the best players in the game’s first half-century, don’t you deserve a spin through the room as a finalist to determine if you are indeed Hall of Fame worthy.

“It took [Jerry] Kramer 45 years to get in. It took teammate Dave Robinson 34 years and Henry Jordan 21. The Hall of Fame is a process. Maybe Dowler and Ron Kramer deserve to be Hall of Famers. Maybe they don’t. But they certainly deserve a few minutes in that room to start the process and have their cases heard, regardless how many teammates have been enshrined.”

Finally, as Gosselin mentioned, besides being on the 50th anniversary team, Dowler was also named All-Decade for the 1960s. Looking at the All-Decade teams through the year 2000, 145 players were given that designation. And with Jerry Kramer (All-Decade-1960s) and Robert Brazile (All--Decade-1970s) now inducted into the Hall of Fame, that means 136 of those players have been enshrined and only nine of those All-Decade players have not. Dowler is one of those nine.

 

[Bob Fox]

Also, just to add some clarity to how many Lombardi Packers are now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The number is 12. Plus, you have Vince himself. I just wanted to set the record straight, because I have seen numbers like 14 or 15 thrown around in this thread.

[Norm]

3 minutes ago, Bob Fox said:

Also, just to add some clarity to how many Lombardi Packers are now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The number is 12. Plus, you have Vince himself. I just wanted to set the record straight, because I have seen numbers like 14 or 15 thrown around in this thread.

That number was (with Lombardi) plus that two I believe. That's where that came from.

[Bob Fox]

One player from the Packers, who only played for Vince Lombardi for one year (1959), is certainly worthy for the Pro Football of Fame. That player is defensive back Bobby Dillon. The main reason he is most likely neglected is because he played for the Packers in the worst decade (1950s) record-wise (39-79-2) in franchise history.

But from 1952 through 1959, Dillon was as good as any DB in the NFL. Dillon was a four-time All-Pro and went to four Pro Bowls. He also had 52 picks for 976 yards and five TDs. This all happened in just eight seasons. Three times Dillon picked off nine passes. No. 44 averaged 6.5 interceptions per season.

Paul Krause is the all-time leader in interceptions in NFL history, as he had 81. But Krause did that in 16 seasons, which averages out to five picks per year.

Rick Gosselin wrote a piece about why Dillon should be considered for a bust in Canton a couple of years ago for the Talk of Fame Network:

http://www.talkoffamenetwork.com/state-your-case-bobby-dillon/

 

[ThatJerkDave]

5 hours ago, Bob Fox said:

Also, just to add some clarity to how many Lombardi Packers are now in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. The number is 12. Plus, you have Vince himself. I just wanted to set the record straight, because I have seen numbers like 14 or 15 thrown around in this thread.

My bad, I took the 12 and added Kramer, Kramer, and Dowler.

[AlexGreen#20]

Can anybody make the argument that those guys should be included on the All Half-Century teams?

I understand that it's a very inclusive list, but none seem to have the resume from a distance of 50 years to deserve inclusion. 

You're talking about a guy in Dowler who made the pro bowl in 2 of his 9 seasons. Kramer made the pro bowl in 1 of his 10 seasons. I just don't understand how anybody votes for Dowler as the 3rd or 4th best receiver of the first 50 years in the NFL. If the foundation of the argument is that he's deserving because he's on a list, that list better be air tight and it's not. 

We can't get a freaking pro bowl list right in 2017, and you're willing to place your complete faith in the same group of people 50 years earlier when tape was still being sent through the mail, recording was done from one angle if at all, and there was no intense scrutiny of media practices? 

[AlexGreen#20]

8 hours ago, Bob Fox said:

Finally, as Gosselin mentioned, besides being on the 50th anniversary team, Dowler was also named All-Decade for the 1960s. Looking at the All-Decade teams through the year 2000, 145 players were given that designation. And with Jerry Kramer (All-Decade-1960s) and Robert Brazile (All--Decade-1970s) now inducted into the Hall of Fame, that means 136 of those players have been enshrined and only nine of those All-Decade players have not. Dowler is one of those nine.

 

So maybe both Wikipedia and Pro Football Reference are wrong, or maybe I've misread something, or maybe you got confused and let something slip that a print editor would have caught, but it certainly looks like you just made that statement up out of thin air.

+++

There's more than 9 position players on the 1960s All Decade Team alone that aren't in the Hall of Fame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Football_League_1960s_All-Decade_Team

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pro_Football_Hall_of_Fame_inductees

http://www.profootballhof.com/news/nfl-s-all-decade-team-of-the-1960s-offense/

http://www.profootballhof.com/news/nfl-s-all-decade-team-of-the-1960s-defense/

John David Crow, Del Shoffner, Gary Collins, Boyd Dowler, Ralph Neely, Howard Mudd, Alex Karras, Larry Morris, Tommy Nobis, Bobby Boyd, and Eddie Meador are all players on the 1960s all decade team who aren't in the Hall of Fame. That's 11 players on the 1960s All Decade team alone that aren't in the Hall of Fame. That doesn't include specialists either, because most of those guys also didn't make the hall. 

 

[Bob Fox]

First off, Jerry went to three Pro Bowls, not one. Secondly, the getting a Pro Bowl invitation back then was completely different than it was today. Many players should have gotten many more invites, but did not. Case in point, Ray Nitschke. No. 66 went to exactly one Pro Bowl, but was named All-Pro six times. Does that make any sense? Being named All-Pro meant a hell of a lot more in the '60s than being named to the Pro Bowl. In terms of the All-Decade attribution, I took the number that I used from one of Rick Gosselin's articles. I should have fact-checked it myself, although Rick is normally spot on with his data. My bad.

 

 

 

 

 

[Bob Fox]

Rick Gosselin said this in his article from the Dallas Morning News from a couple of years ago:

There are no more powerful words an NFL player can have on his Hall of Fame résumé than "first-team all-decade."

Those select few represent the best players at their positions of their eras -- and they are chosen by the same group that authorizes the busts for Canton, the Hall of Fame selection committee. There have been 288 position players selected all-decade through the year 2000, but only 145 of them wore that coveted "first-team" designation. That kicks the door open for their enshrinement, inviting a rubber stamp.

Boyd Dowler was considered a second-team All-Decade player, while Jerry Kramer was indeed first-team.

[AlexGreen#20]

12 hours ago, Bob Fox said:

First off, Jerry went to three Pro Bowls, not one. Secondly, the getting a Pro Bowl invitation back then was completely different than it was today. Many players should have gotten many more invites, but did not. Case in point, Ray Nitschke. No. 66 went to exactly one Pro Bowl, but was named All-Pro six times. Does that make any sense? Being named All-Pro meant a hell of a lot more in the '60s than being named to the Pro Bowl. In terms of the All-Decade attribution, I took the number that I used from one of Rick Gosselin's articles. I should have fact-checked it myself, although Rick is normally spot on with his data. My bad.

 

Nobody is talking about Jerry Kramer. We're talking about Ron Kramer who only went to one pro bowl in his ten years. That is the person you started this thread about.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/K/KramRo00.htm

+++

Being named all pro meant a hell of a lot more in the 60's. Funny you should mention that:

Dowler has zero AP All Pro nominations (as a receiver, he got one in 1962 as a Punter) for either first or second team.

He has one All Pro nomination and it was only an All Conference nomination by the non-recognized Sporting News.

+++

So again, I pose the question, how does someone with zero all pros and only 2 pro bowls make the Hall of Fame?

 

 

[Bob Fox]

Once again...ask Rick Gosselin. The title of my article says that Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer deserve consideration for Canton. That was based on what Gosselin (a Hall of Fame voter and a seniors committee member) said. I agree with Rick. That doesn't mean either will ever get a bust in Canton, but they at least need to be discussed at least once in the seniors committee meeting, based on being on the NFL's 50th anniversary team, which by the way, was put together by the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

 

[AlexGreen#20]

On 2/21/2018 at 7:05 AM, Bob Fox said:

Once again...ask Rick Gosselin. The title of my article says that Boyd Dowler and Ron Kramer deserve consideration for Canton. That was based on what Gosselin (a Hall of Fame voter and a seniors committee member) said. I agree with Rick. That doesn't mean either will ever get a bust in Canton, but they at least need to be discussed at least once in the seniors committee meeting, based on being on the NFL's 50th anniversary team, which by the way, was put together by the Pro Football Hall of Fame.

 

You posted a freaking topic on the subject. How do you not have a justifiable opinion on it meriting defensu such that I would need to discuss Rick Gosselin? At that point you're just advertising for your own site and not creating discussion on the board.

If somebody doesn't deserve to be in the HOF by a significant margin, then why should they be discussed? Both of these dudes are classic, Hall of Very Good cases. In a 1600 player league, 5 players are inducted every year. If we keep the same standards for players who play in a different era with 14 teams, then 2.5 players should make it per year. Of all the players that played over the course of his 10ish year career, was he among the top 25? Was he even among the top 50?

If your only claim to a potential honor is being on a list, you need to belong on that list. I don't get how you think that Boyd was the 3rd/4th best receiver of the NFL's first 50 years. He was a second team All Decade in the 60s. Unless you feel like the 1960s had the four best receivers of the the NFL's first 50 years the HOF's voting logic for either the All Decade team or the All half century team are inconsistent.