Job of OLB's changing

[Chieferific]

8 hours ago, warfelg said:

So, as much as I respect a lot of you guys......your all talking out your backend here and don't comprehend what Tomlin is talking about (or didn't read it and took my 2 sec crib sheet to heart).

 

A few things:

We brought 4+ rushers on ~80% of downs the lest 3 years.

Outside the DL the highest percent of plays rushed by a non-down linemen the last 3 years? 70% by Harrison.  Next highest? 55% by Dupree.

 

What is Tomlin really talking about?

Having 4 linebackers that can cover, play the run, and rush the passer from any of the 4 linebacker spots.  It's bringing back the the unpredictability.  This isn't about considering anything but the down lineman rushing being called a blitzer.  It's about getting away from those Harrison years where he was a dedicated rusher, and getting more back to what the Zone-Blitz was about and bringing the 4th rusher from multiple places.  It's why Harrison was so marginalized the last 2 years.  All he could do is rush, he couldn't play zone anymore and he couldn't man cover so he wasn't as valuable to the defense.

And I would argue....it's working.

Like someone said: This year we were 1st in total sacks in the regular season. In 2016 we were T-9th.

This year we had 6 players with at least 4 sacks.  15 players with sacks.  Guess what.....that was best in the NFL with sack distribution.  That means we had the most players contribute to making plays behind the LOS.   We also had the most players with at least 1 sack, and 1 INT (5).  Guess what....add in forced fumbles and we were again tops (3).

2016, we didn't have a huge number of players with 4+ sacks (3), however we did again have the most players with at lest 1 sack.  Again we lead with the most players with 1 sack and 1 INT (6).  Again add forced fumbles and it was the same thing (4).

That's a sign that what we're doing is working!  The pass rush is less predictable than it was before.  All we complained about in the past was that our defense was too predictable because we know where the rusher was coming from.  But now we make it less predictable, that means the sacks are less "condensed" with players and more spread out.

Comparison:

#2 in sacks this year had 4 guys with 4+ sacks.  1 less player with a sack than us.  They only had 2 guys record a sack and an INT. 1 player with a sack, int, FF.  9 guys with less than 2 sacks out of their 14 with sacks.  Means a majority of their pass rush came from 5 guys.

Only 5 of our guys had less than 2 sacks.  That means a majority of our pass rush came from 10 guys.

Want to add in the number of players with 2 sacks to that total?

Jacksonville got 42.5 of their 55 sacks from 4 guys.  Predictable as to who is coming.

We got 47 sacks out of 56 sacks from 8 guys.  Completely unpredictable.

I know there's some that would disagree with Tomlin no matter what and put it down because we don't have one guy with ~15 sacks....but Tomlin is right here.  Our defense is improving.  We're bringing 4 rushers with less predictable rushers.  We're getting more sacks.  We're getting improved pass defense.  This is why I literally just have to sit here and laugh about it.  Things are improving but because it's not showing up in a 3 sec defensive stat search you are unhappy.  So what.  It's working.  

And Tomlin is right.  In order to run this less predictable front 7, where the 4th rusher can come from anywhere, you need to have 4 LB's who can do a bit of everything, instead of a dedicated rusher, and a dedicated coverage from OLB.  

To clarify, the post/Tweet led me to believe that the OLBs weren't going to be AS responsible for Pass Rush (that is how it's written). It didn't suggest that the Pass Rush reps would be split up among the LBs. If the idea is to spread the "designated" Pass Rusher around then I have no quam with that. I don't know why anyone would. 

[Chieferific]

7 hours ago, warfelg said:

I'll try to find that.  I can tell you Clowney was rushing about 84% of his snaps and Dupree was rushing closer to only 50% of his snaps.

Though I'm sure it happened a time or two, I can't recall a time Dupree rushed, beat his man one-on-one and got to the QB. He is a Size/Speed F.O.N.. I've just yet to see it translate onto the field. 

[warfelg]

7 hours ago, Armsteeld2 said:

@warfelg you’re a stats guy so I’m asking you how many tipped passes did Dupree make?  How many interceptions?  Dropping for the sake of dropping is pointless!  Some of Dupree’s sacks were flush sacks where another player forced QB into him or he was unblocked.  No one in their right mind watching the Steelers defense would think that was a Top 10 defense ?  **** what Tomlin is saying because his LBs are garbage!  Scheme can cover against bad QBs and less than talented teams but eventually a mad dog must be placed into that core who intimidates through production.

He had 1 PD and yet wound up with the highest PD ratio based on targets.  Also gave up one of the lowest comp% as the primary defender, I think only trailing Haden and Sutton.

And you say no one in their right mind would think we were top ten.....but we were.

[warfelg]

1 hour ago, Chieferific said:

Though I'm sure it happened a time or two, I can't recall a time Dupree rushed, beat his man one-on-one and got to the QB. He is a Size/Speed F.O.N.. I've just yet to see it translate onto the field. 

He has, but again....what they are asked to do changed.  He's been asked to contain and push down from the back.

 

I'm confident in saying this:  If we let Dupree walk, he could find success elsewhere.

[Chieferific]

4 hours ago, warfelg said:

He has, but again....what they are asked to do changed.  He's been asked to contain and push down from the back.

 

I'm confident in saying this:  If we let Dupree walk, he could find success elsewhere.

Fair enough. It sounds like we're just expecting to see 2 different things. I realize he's not asked to Rush every down and is asked to do more containing. However, I still say when he IS asked to Rush I haven't seen the success I'd expect from someone who has his attributes. 

[CKSteeler]

You know, until it doesn't. There wasn't a ton of pressure when this team needed it this year. What you post sounds nice on paper. 4 LB's standing up, all who can rush, cover the pass, and play the run? Sign me up! But the team didn't have that even before Shazier went down. Because sort of like his preference for swiss army knives along the OL when he first got here, you often end up with guys who can't do any of those three things particularly well.

The sack numbers have been there. But when I see sack distribution being spread out, I think more Seattle Seahawks circa 2005. A team that lacks guys who do anything dominant. Has some nice cogs. But no one who can actually take over a game. The closest this team had is Shazier. And, as I've already said, you are using first round draft choices on guys like Dupree and no matter how you spin it, his impact on the game simply isn't that great. Could it be larger? I don't know. I just know he's not doing enough to scare offenses.

Jacksonville didn't need to worry about how unpredictable the Steelers were. They ran it down the throat of the defense. Outside and inside.

New England didn't need to worry about how unpredictable the Steelers were. They were smarter and knew how to block what the Steelers threw at them just about every snap and then threw it up to Gronk. The Pats had the Steelers unpredictable defense figured out within a half of football, per usual, and then found ways to exploit it.

Give me Khalil Mack or an in his prime James Harrison. You know, players that draw extra attention from opposing offenses. James Harrison was more predictable. But he was so good at what he did he always required extra attention. No one on this defense requires that at the moment. The Steelers don't get premium draft position too often so finding elite talents isn't easy. But they don't seem that good at even identifying talents on defense who do what Tomlin/Butler supposedly aim to do.

I haven't given up on Dupree because I see talent. I've seen him make plays with his athleticism. But some combination of his short comings and how he's used on Sunday? It's entirely underwhelming. No number of sacks against a Houston team that has quit or Cleveland are going to change that reality. You are posting some numbers throughout the season and ignoring what your own eyes are telling you. Outside against the Lions, I can't remember Dupree making a legitimate impact play.

Jesus - this team needed an miracle comeback against BALTIMORE'S offense that people seem to just forget.

This is like some sort of dumb, inverted version of the Tampa 2 which relied on great DL players to succeed. Only, now we're building our defense around second impact players who do multiple things (again, supposedly), but who are even easier to take out of the game. So you're preaching this brilliant scheme that fell apart when it mattered most all year long. Meanwhile, if you put 2008 James Harrison on this defense right now, he'd be just as good. Seattle's defense wasn't all that exotic, but it succeeded on talent and creating mismatches for offenses. Same with this years Jaguars. The Broncos were a combination of great talent playing with a great defensive coordinator. Wade knew to tone things down and let his guys play, though. Because he had the guys.

Do the 2018 Steelers have the guys? No. Do they have the scheme? No. Because the key to defense in 2018 isn't going to be having swiss army knife LB's. And if you want to play that game, you have better have depth at the LB position. The Steelers don't. I'm not even sure they have good coaching at the position which is pretty important if you're asking guys to do multiple things. But here you are bragging about how innovative Tomlin is with his approach to 3-4 LB's because they racked up sacks against the most inept offensive teams in the league.

[CKSteeler]

This is the equivalent of defending Bill Cowher's approach to offense in the Jerome Bettis years. Only, Tomlin (unlike Cowher) is a defensive coach whose plan on defense sucks when it matters most. Tomlin legit changed this defense for the better when he took over in 2007 and 2008. What he's created right now is a paper tiger, and people who think Shazier changes it all are deluding themselves.

[3rivers]

On 2018-02-22 at 6:18 PM, Chieferific said:

Though I'm sure it happened a time or two, I can't recall a time Dupree rushed, beat his man one-on-one and got to the QB. He is a Size/Speed F.O.N.. I've just yet to see it translate onto the field. 

Dupree is a bust, but not effort or conditioning (jarvis), but he just doesn't have the skills of a RD 1 pass rusher. More like no pass rush skill at all from what I have seen.   3years and keep counting, you won't see it translate onto the field and in a few years he won't be on the field. Another wasted RD1  pick.  Plays more like a reserve . 

[warfelg]

11 minutes ago, 3rivers said:

Dupree is a bust, but not effort or conditioning (jarvis), but he just doesn't have the skills of a RD 1 pass rusher. More like no pass rush skill at all from what I have seen.   3years and keep counting, you won't see it translate onto the field and in a few years he won't be on the field. Another wasted RD1  pick.  Plays more like a reserve . 

Rewatch his last year of college tape, then watch this you and you see a guy that's developed.  He's added a dip under and an inside swim.  There's plenty of GIFs of him close but because the secondary sprung a leak he couldn't get home.

[Alex]

I'm hoping this means we are looking for a pure pass rusher, IMO somebody who can play in the dirt and switch on both sides.

Tuitt, Heyward, and Hargraves all are technically and can play as "functional nose tackle". I'm buying into this because it's apparently our defense's strength now and might as well makes it even stronger with a true 4-3 defensive end. 

I'm thinking Marcus Davenport (likely) or Raheem Green. We can also always look into the possibility of trading for Vinny Curry. 

I'm thinking the FA and trades are the ones we should pay attention to this year, not the draft.

[Alex]

Unless they want Dupree to play in the dirt which I think he can if he could gain some weight.

This isn't a good safety class (there are a lot of raw and developmental prospects) so until we can get solid coverage that makes a quarterback sweat.

People talk about how James Harrison made quarterbacks sweat- I think it's actually Polamalu that Harrison benefited from the most. Polamalu- Manning would have to check him down and shout "MIKE MIKE!" perhaps it's not a coincidence when Polamalu is gone, Harrison became... useless as an OLB. He's still one of the best pass rushers, but you don't want that from the OLBs anymore.

This is also why I DO not want to upgrade the OLB/ILB position within the first round. How much of an improvement will there be? Between Shazier/Williams, we are seeing more and more one inside linebacker playing. Do we need a dominant player? absolutely, but we need that at the SAFETY position; not linebacker.

For sake of this argument- I'd be okay with trading up to grab a strong safety. We sorely need one anyway (move Sean Davis to FS, he will do fine).

[Chieferific]

8 minutes ago, Alex said:

Unless they want Dupree to play in the dirt which I think he can if he could gain some weight.

This isn't a good safety class (there are a lot of raw and developmental prospects) so until we can get solid coverage that makes a quarterback sweat.

People talk about how James Harrison made quarterbacks sweat- I think it's actually Polamalu that Harrison benefited from the most. Polamalu- Manning would have to check him down and shout "MIKE MIKE!" perhaps it's not a coincidence when Polamalu is gone, Harrison became... useless as an OLB. He's still one of the best pass rushers, but you don't want that from the OLBs anymore.

This is also why I DO not want to upgrade the OLB/ILB position within the first round. How much of an improvement will there be? Between Shazier/Williams, we are seeing more and more one inside linebacker playing. Do we need a dominant player? absolutely, but we need that at the SAFETY position; not linebacker.

For sake of this argument- I'd be okay with trading up to grab a strong safety. We sorely need one anyway (move Sean Davis to FS, he will do fine).

A couple of things here, Dupree is about 270lbs. That's already DE size. How much more weight do you want him to have? I agree the Safety class this year is sub par and I could get on board with Smith moving to FS if a serviceable SS is found. However, the Polamalu/Harrison statement isn't without it's flaws. Surely they both benefited from each other but what it boils down to is can the OLB beat the OT One-on-One? It doesn't matter what Troy did pre-snap. Harrison had to win One-on-One. Which he did quite often. I'd say his decline had MORE to do with age than SS play.  

[warfelg]

5 minutes ago, Chieferific said:

A couple of things here, Dupree is about 270lbs. That's already DE size. How much more weight do you want him to have? I agree the Safety class this year is sub par and I could get on board with Smith moving to FS if a serviceable SS is found. However, the Polamalu/Harrison statement isn't without it's flaws. Surely they both benefited from each other but what it boils down to is can the OLB beat the OT One-on-One? It doesn't matter what Troy did pre-snap. Harrison had to win One-on-One. Which he did quite often. I'd say his decline had MORE to do with age than SS play.  

I think it had to do with both.

[Armsteeld2]

@Alex Deebo made QBs sweat and wet themselves because he obliterated their OL and put them in a hell of hurt!  If anything the secondary benfits from a good pass rush.

[Chieferific]

1 minute ago, warfelg said:

I think it had to do with both.

Sure they both benefitted from each other. But again, no matter what Troy did pre-snap the job of the LT was still to block James and James only. If the idea is that Troy made the QB hold to the ball longer than sure, that helped. But James had to win his matchup.