Broncos QB Discussion Thread

[thebestever6]

9 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Some interesting nuggets in this Yahoo! piece today. One, and again this should come as no surprise to anyone who has been following this franchise or this story with any measure of depth, but two sources confirmed we are going "all-in" on Cousins. 

Interesting wording there. "two sources familiar with the Broncos free agency plans," that sounds like it's coming from an agent and not from a source inside Dove Valley. 

More intrestingly, however, is what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer said:  

That sounds to me like ZImmer doesn't want to break the bank on Cousins. We all know Cousins has said that money is only one factor he will consider, and as I said in the OP, Minnesota looks like a better situation on paper and thus Cousins might be willing to take less than market value (at least this market value) to go there. Also, Zimmer isn't the GM and the decision of what size contract to offer will be more up to the Wilfs and Rick Spielman. 

No this sounds like Zimmer sees the writing on the wall and is letting Spielman see the whole picture lol.

Zimmer says if he misses on a qb he will lose his job doesn't spielman make the decisions  

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

No this sounds like Zimmer sees the writing on the wall and is letting Spielman see the whole picture lol.

Zimmer says if he misses on a qb he will lose his job doesn't spielman make the decisions  

Huh?

[Broncofan]

20 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Some interesting nuggets in this Yahoo! piece today. One, and again this should come as no surprise to anyone who has been following this franchise or this story with any measure of depth, but two sources confirmed we are going "all-in" on Cousins. 

Interesting wording there. "two sources familiar with the Broncos free agency plans," that sounds like it's coming from an agent and not from a source inside Dove Valley. 

More intrestingly, however, is what Vikings coach Mike Zimmer said:  

That sounds to me like ZImmer doesn't want to break the bank on Cousins. We all know Cousins has said that money is only one factor he will consider, and as I said in the OP, Minnesota looks like a better situation on paper and thus Cousins might be willing to take less than market value (at least this market value) to go there. Also, Zimmer isn't the GM and the decision of what size contract to offer will be more up to the Wilfs and Rick Spielman. 

My take?  Two words:  Lying season.

MIN is playing cat and mouse, since Cousins has already said MIN is his preferred destination.  They are playing hard to get, and seeing how much they can limit the salary outlay.  Remember that Cousins has already said $ isn't the only factor, winning now is - so MIN is trying to figure out how much that means.  

IMO MIN is still in the driver's seat - the Q is how much they want Cousins to discount from the highest bidder.   FWIW, I don't think we'll be the highest bidder, the Jets likely will be, but their stage of rebuilding puts them #3-#4 on Cousins' wish list.   It's also cover just in case Cousins doesn't end up in MIN.    

All of this is PR and smokescreen - until FA hits.   I wish I could say I thought we were the frontrunner, I really think we're clearly behind.   Ironically, when Darnold/Rosen were a pipe dream, that was cause for real concern - now we have real hope one of them could be had at 1.3 (which doesn't necessarily require a trade of a 2019 1st).   To be clear, if either became Cousins V2, that would be a good result - Cousins IMO is that good (awful cast, etc.).  But it matters a ton for our roster construction that we'd get either on a rookie deal instead of 25-30M AAV.  Man, so many variables.   

The 2 key guys in the offseason for the QB draft outcome are Cousins and who CLE signs.  If they go McCarron, I do think the chances of going Josh Allen in CLE shoot way up - and that suddenly puts Rosen/Mayfield on our radar as do-able without costing the 2019 1st.    Can't wait to see those 2 shoes drop.

[thebestever6]

22 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

"I want to be really careful about taking away from our strength and saying, ‘OK, we’re not going to be able to do this and we’re not going to be able to do that anymore because of financial reasons or something else.”

This is what I'm talking about AAA. Zimmer isn't the gm Spielman is. This is just zimmer not trying to step on Spielmans toes but is trying to give him the opposite side.

Zimmer also said if he drafts a qb high and he fails he loses his job. So that route doesn't sound like it intrigues him either. 

If I had to ask Zimmer personally I'd  say,he thinks the qb play last year,was a product of the team. Still if he believes cousin's puts them over the hump can't rule it out.

[The Helicopter]

What a second...are we saying that trading our 2019 1st round pick isn't worth the cost of getting Rosen? I'm bridging from the FA thread and the post about Cleveland not throwing a rookie QB out and the assumption they will go Allen 1.1. If we are in a position to trade up and it costs our 2018 1.5, and 2019 R1, heck let's throw in a random R3 pick is this not the ideal QBOTF?

[thebestever6]

4 minutes ago, The Helicopter said:

What a second...are we saying that trading our 2019 1st round pick isn't worth the cost of getting Rosen? I'm bridging from the FA thread and the post about Cleveland not throwing a rookie QB out and the assumption they will go Allen 1.1. If we are in a position to trade up and it costs our 2018 1.5, and 2019 R1, heck let's throw in a random R3 pick is this not the ideal QBOTF?

If Rosen didn't have injury issues I'd be all for it we are talking shoulder, hand, concussion. You still wanna field the best team possible. 

That Texans trade gives me nightmares.

[AnAngryAmerican]

26 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

My take?  Two words:  Lying season.

MIN is playing cat and mouse, since Cousins has already said MIN is his preferred destination.  They are playing hard to get, and seeing how much they can limit the salary outlay.  Remember that Cousins has already said $ isn't the only factor, winning now is - so MIN is trying to figure out how much that means.  

I don't disagree that "lying season" is a valid explanation for what Zimmer said. I also think Minnesota is the front-runner to land Cousins. However, where is the quote from Cousins saying Minnesota is his preferred destination? That would treading a pretty thin line in terms of tampering rules, not for Cousins since he's a individual, but if he said that it wouldn't be hard for Washington to file a grievance with the league (silly as it is, this is Dan Snyder's team we're talking about here). 

[Broncofan]

33 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

I don't disagree that "lying season" is a valid explanation for what Zimmer said. I also think Minnesota is the front-runner to land Cousins. However, where is the quote from Cousins saying Minnesota is his preferred destination? That would treading a pretty thin line in terms of tampering rules, not for Cousins since he's a individual, but if he said that it wouldn't be hard for Washington to file a grievance with the league (silly as it is, this is Dan Snyder's team we're talking about here). 

Here's the source, he said it live on radio on XM (not just some local guy using unconfirmed sources), I caught the blurb at that time being a XM subscriber on the way home, he did say it as reported:

https://kfan.iheart.com/content/2018-02-02-report-cousins-says-vikings-are-1-with-a-bullet-if-offers-are-similar/

Tampering rules don't apply to players - so he's safe.  It's the same when Earl Thomas went to Jason Garrett and said "come get me" - referring to when he hits FA after 2018.   Bad form?  Sure, but not illegal. 

The real Q is how much MIN will lowball him vs. higher bidders to be "similar" (not equal).   Given Cousins has let his position be known, it's just a matter of how much he's willing to discount to go to the best win-now situation.  Given MIN's cap situation (at 48M space and can get to 55M with an easy decision to cut Sharif Floyd with no dead money if needed), and unlike us, they can see themselves as just a QB away (remember, they did all this with Dalvin Cook on IR, he's going to upgrade that run attack even more), man, I just see us as clearly the bridesmaid...unless MIN gets too cute.  If it meant we'd be landing Josh Allen, I'd be so upset - if it means we get Darnold/Rosen, though, my outlook changes 180 degrees (no denying Allen's physical talent, but his QB-skills deficiencies make bust a very real floor...for 1.5, no thanks).

[AnAngryAmerican]

Something I think that fans and a sizable chunk of the media fail to take into account in this whole QB discussion is who will be making the decisions. 

Let's say we don't land Cousins and or some other sure-fire starter in free agency and thus a QB at No. 5 overall becomes a virtual certainty, who that selection is at No. 5 (or higher after a trade up as @Broncofan continues to rightfully mention is an option) is going to be made by John Elway, Gary Kubiak, Bill Musgrave and Mike Sullivan, all guys who come from more of an "old school" view of QBs. I know that prospects like Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson get some fans and people in the media excited because of their dynamic play styles but I just don't see that brain trust going for an unorthodox QB. If we draft a QB, I'd be shocked if it wasn't one of Rosen, Darnold or Allen. 

[thebestever6]

3 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Something I think that fans and a sizable chunk of the media fail to take into account in this whole QB discussion is who will be making the decisions. 

Let's say we don't land Cousins and or some other sure-fire starter in free agency and thus a QB at No. 5 overall becomes a virtual certainty, who that selection is at No. 5 (or higher after a trade up as @Broncofan continues to rightfully mention is an option) is going to be made by John Elway, Gary Kubiak, Bill Musgrave and Mike Sullivan, all guys who come from more of an "old school" view of QBs. I know that prospects like Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson get some fans and people in the media excited because of their dynamic play styles but I just don't see that brain trust going for an unorthodox QB. If we draft a QB, I'd be shocked if it wasn't one of Rosen, Darnold or Allen. 

I would agree, but I heard Elway emphasize 2 times this year hoe the prostyle offenses are changing. So I'll say not so fast. 

[Broncofan]

8 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

Something I think that fans and a sizable chunk of the media fail to take into account in this whole QB discussion is who will be making the decisions. 

Let's say we don't land Cousins and or some other sure-fire starter in free agency and thus a QB at No. 5 overall becomes a virtual certainty, who that selection is at No. 5 (or higher after a trade up as @Broncofan continues to rightfully mention is an option) is going to be made by John Elway, Gary Kubiak, Bill Musgrave and Mike Sullivan, all guys who come from more of an "old school" view of QBs. I know that prospects like Baker Mayfield and Lamar Jackson get some fans and people in the media excited because of their dynamic play styles but I just don't see that brain trust going for an unorthodox QB. If we draft a QB, I'd be shocked if it wasn't one of Rosen, Darnold or Allen. 

I think that's the biggest fear, because if Darnold/Rosen are gone by the time we pick, it's so much more likely to be Allen because of Elway's mindset.   

As mentioned in the College thread, the other thing we know is that Elway does his due diligence in watching/meeting guys - and by passing on Jackson's bowl game, and concentrating on the other 4 (Rosen was ruled out of his bowl game), Elway's sending a clear message on Jackson.  I do think scouting Mayfield is a decision borne out of necessity in Elway's mind (Darnold/Rosen gone, he has to choose between Allen/Mayfield, and even he likely sees the risk with Allen, so can't ignore taking Mayfield ahead of Allen - but in the end, falls for the looks-like-the-franchise-qb-and-has-the-highest-ceiling....even if it's with a bust floor).  

[champ11]

2 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I think that's the biggest fear, because if Darnold/Rosen are gone by the time we pick, it's so much more likely to be Allen because of Elway's mindset.   

Agreed and agreed with AAA as well. 

[Broncofan]

2 hours ago, The Helicopter said:

What a second...are we saying that trading our 2019 1st round pick isn't worth the cost of getting Rosen? I'm bridging from the FA thread and the post about Cleveland not throwing a rookie QB out and the assumption they will go Allen 1.1. If we are in a position to trade up and it costs our 2018 1.5, and 2019 R1, heck let's throw in a random R3 pick is this not the ideal QBOTF?

If CLE takes Allen (or Barkley) 1.1, I don't see NYG going anywhere but Rosen 1.2.   They're not going to trade down to 1.5 if Rosen is there IMO, they've been locked in on him by all accounts.  Most of their PR speak is to manage Eli's departure, and given how badly they bungled his benching with the prev FO, it's smart business (but note that GM Gettleman has yet to back off of taking QB at 1.2 when asked).

The scenario then becomes trading up to 1.3, because a team like NYJ, ARI or BUF will want to leapfrog us for the other guy not taken - but at 1.3, then we don't need to pay a 2019 1st, more like 2.7 and 2019 2nd/3rd.  I don't think if we stand pat at 1.5, that IND would stand pat - they're dying to trade back, it's a question of who will move up to get the QB left there.  Which if CLE passes on Darnold/Rosen...well you get the idea.

If you are saying we should pay 1.5, 2.7, 2019 1st and 3rd to get 1.1 to get Rosen, over getting Darnold at 1.3 and just paying 2.7/2019 3rd, I'd be fine with 1.3 and Darnold.   In a vacuum, Rosen is a little safer, but I actually believe their ceilings are similar.   That's just me though.   But the discussion on moving up to 1.3 is if Darnold/Rosen aren't taken at 1.1, then the price for 1.3 is actually a lot less than a move to 1.1.    I don't see NYG moving off 1.2; if they're going QB it's to get Rosen.

[thebestever6]

You guys are most likely right I just have a hard time believing it. This is the same man who tried trading for colin k, tyrod taylor, drafted Paxton.  And he's gonna pass up a sit down and private workout with the most athletic strong armed qb since Mike Vick?

[The Helicopter]

55 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

If CLE takes Allen (or Barkley) 1.1, I don't see NYG going anywhere but Rosen 1.2.   They're not going to trade down to 1.5 if Rosen is there IMO, they've been locked in on him by all accounts.  Most of their PR speak is to manage Eli's departure, and given how badly they bungled his benching with the prev FO, it's smart business (but note that GM Gettleman has yet to back off of taking QB at 1.2 when asked).

The scenario then becomes trading up to 1.3, because a team like NYJ, ARI or BUF will want to leapfrog us for the other guy not taken - but at 1.3, then we don't need to pay a 2019 1st, more like 2.7 and 2019 2nd/3rd.  I don't think if we stand pat at 1.5, that IND would stand pat - they're dying to trade back, it's a question of who will move up to get the QB left there.  Which if CLE passes on Darnold/Rosen...well you get the idea.

If you are saying we should pay 1.5, 2.7, 2019 1st and 3rd to get 1.1 to get Rosen, over getting Darnold at 1.3 and just paying 2.7/2019 3rd, I'd be fine with 1.3 and Darnold.   In a vacuum, Rosen is a little safer, but I actually believe their ceilings are similar.   That's just me though.   But the discussion on moving up to 1.3 is if Darnold/Rosen aren't taken at 1.1, then the price for 1.3 is actually a lot less than a move to 1.1.    I don't see NYG moving off 1.2; if they're going QB it's to get Rosen.

So, you don't see 1.1 or 1.2 picks in the 2018 draft getting traded...but, 1.3 & 1.4 will be interesting to watch. If that's the scenario and there are multiple teams interested, then based on past trades I imagine the cost will be very high. In that reality the question is how much is Darnold worth trading up for?