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JMG5

Saints sign S Kurt Coleman

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JMG5 said:

Gosh did we overpay Coleman. 

Yup. Worst signing of this offseason for us. Only one I don’t like 

How much more (or less) would Vaccaro have been? Younger, more upside, known commodity and knows the system 

Edited by domepatrol91

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Signing Coleman was a different situation. He gives us inside info on someone we will play 2-3 times per year (8-12 games over the length of his contract). That's something you can't put a dollar amount on. Now was it too much? I guess we'll find out.

I'm not going to jump too quickly to say it was too high, I guess.

I'll bet Vaccaro just poohed himself a little.

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1 hour ago, domepatrol91 said:

Yup. Worst signing of this offseason for us. Only one I don’t like 

How much more (or less) would Vaccaro have been? Younger, more upside, known commodity and knows the system 

Time to look at it this way... Maybe Vaccaro wasn't viewed as highly as others. Like I said before, Vaccaro is the better athlele but Coleman is the better football player. Another thing Coleman adds that the Saints value is impeccable high character coming from what is an elder statesman of the secondary. That should tell you a little something about how the Saints viewed Vaccaro's leadership qualities and the type of effect he might have been having on other younger players.

 

Make no mistake about it... Coleman was signed not only to be a leader in a young secondary and give valuable minutes to Vaccaro's old position but also to help make Marcus Williams and Vonn Bell better football players and professionals.

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1 hour ago, domepatrol91 said:

Yup. Worst signing of this offseason for us. Only one I don’t like 

How much more (or less) would Vaccaro have been? Younger, more upside, known commodity and knows the system 

I think what I read a week ago was that the contract is essentially a one year deal, which is good.

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Vacarro was the 2nd worst safety according to PFF.  No matter how bad you think Coleman might've been last year he was still better than Kenny.  Hell Payton even benched him anf limited his snaps a few times last year because of his play.

Now if you want to complain because of the other safeties that ended up hitting the market, mostly due to cuts that cant be predicted normally, and the price they went for compared to what we paid Coleman, I can understand your sentiments but dont think it fits with every other safety.  Comparing him to Vacarro though would be like comparing Crawley to Devante Harris.  Crawley might not be a stud, but the dude also isnt one of the worst at his position, same goes for Coleman but Coleman also brings leadership, experience, and professionalism that apparently thr Saints didnt think Vacarro had.

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45 minutes ago, Raves said:

Vacarro was the 2nd worst safety according to PFF.  No matter how bad you think Coleman might've been last year he was still better than Kenny.  Hell Payton even benched him anf limited his snaps a few times last year because of his play.

Now if you want to complain because of the other safeties that ended up hitting the market, mostly due to cuts that cant be predicted normally, and the price they went for compared to what we paid Coleman, I can understand your sentiments but dont think it fits with every other safety.  Comparing him to Vacarro though would be like comparing Crawley to Devante Harris.  Crawley might not be a stud, but the dude also isnt one of the worst at his position, same goes for Coleman but Coleman also brings leadership, experience, and professionalism that apparently thr Saints didnt think Vacarro had.

Vaccaro's ability to cover is way overrated. I'm glad we're letting him walk. However, Coleman is coming off of a down year and got paid almost as much as the top saftey on the market (Mathieu). His contract is terrible and we paid him too early. If he was coming off of a solid year then I could understand the overpay, but he was pretty bad last year for the Panthers and we still paid him top dollar. 

All that being said, I hope he balls out for us. If he doesn't then we should be able to cut him after this year without much, if any, dead cap.

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4 hours ago, JMG5 said:

Vaccaro's ability to cover is way overrated. I'm glad we're letting him walk. However, Coleman is coming off of a down year and got paid almost as much as the top saftey on the market (Mathieu). His contract is terrible and we paid him too early. If he was coming off of a solid year then I could understand the overpay, but he was pretty bad last year for the Panthers and we still paid him top dollar. 

All that being said, I hope he balls out for us. If he doesn't then we should be able to cut him after this year without much, if any, dead cap.

When you have such a young team with so many rookie contracts you can afford to spend a lil extra of valued veterans on short term deals in efforts for a run at a chip.

 

I also think Payton is a situational thinker amd even going back to the last minute TD in Minnesota, He will value experience in those types of situations.

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On 3/20/2018 at 10:38 PM, Raves said:

Comparing him to Vacarro though would be like comparing Crawley to Devante Harris

Harris has shown to be one of the worst players in the league while Crawley proved himself a quality starter. Earlier this year we had fans worried Vaccaro would command $+8m a year and we didn't want to pay that. This is an unfair comparison IMO.

 

With the market Vaccaro has drawn it appears we could've got him for cheaper on a 1 or 2 year deal as a stopgap role player and reserve that knows the system. Hell, we still could, but he's probably ready to move on at this point too. I don't think anyone wanted to lock Vaccaro up long term his contract expired, but halfway through 2017 there was legit concern that we'd just have to let him walk to the highest bidder. Coincidentally, we ended up paying Coleman just a million or so shy of what we were afraid he were gonna have to pay Vaccaro back then. 

 He has shown he can be serviceable in our system, sometimes much better.  We had some more zealous fans argue he's a top 5 or top 10 safety when he was on his streak midseason. He was overrated then, but I feel like he's being underrated now. Halfway through last year PFF had him ranked as like a top 5 slot defender or something absurd. He obviously didn't sustain that level of play, but remember the times that 1st rounder Patrick Robinson showed flashes but could only string together one or two good games? Or when 1st rounder Malcolm Jenkins looked poised to make a leap but instead took a step back, then finally made the leap only to then take another step back?

Before this year, we were all joking about how our coaching staff ruins defensive backs, or defensive talent in general. They have a history of it outside of just a couple samples in the last few years. 1st round pick Kenny Vaccaro has shown flashes of greatness, but was always inconsistent. Like Robinson and like Jenkins, Vaccaro might take a year or two to rebound, but I really think he has potential. 

I hope I'm wrong, but I think we goofed on this one. Vaccaro isn't anything special, but neither is Coleman. Vaccaro's potential wherever you view it is much less than what Coleman has proven to be throughout his career. Consider that and the fact that at least a handful of us already consider this an overpay, and I just don't like it.

 

COMMENCE THE YELLING
IM READY

 

Rest of the offseason has been great tho :P

 

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I won't yell at ya, but I don't want Kenny back. I wouldn't hate it, but he's just another player. People who don't root for the Saints don't even know who he is, for a reason.

When a guy needs to get benched in order to play hard, that's not a good sign. Not a good sign at all. I know the guy was a hammer. I know people were scared of him. But the guy has to be "in the game" to be scary, and he certainly was, about half the time.

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@domepatrol91 If you are looking at it just based on money and level of play, there might be a case for Vaccaro over Coleman depending on what Vaccaro actually signs for, it would need to be under $3 mil/yr for me to consider that argument though, but you are still missing other aspects that Coleman has that Vaccaro can't/hasn't brought to the table.  For starters you he plays at a consistently level throughout an entire season.  You won't have the same level of game winning/costing swings that you did with Vaccaro.  Also whenever Coleman has had good CB play around him, so he doesn't have to worry about protecting the weaker players as well as his own assignments, he's played consistently at a high level and was one of the better safeties in the league.  Coleman also brings leadership and experience to our young secondary, sure Vaccaro has a few years under his belt but nothing he's done has shouted leader to me nor has his play shown much experience.  Then you add in the Ohio State connection where he is joining many other players that are already on our roster, to include arguably our best defensive player in Lattimore and our likely safety of the future in Vonn Bell where Coleman can help tutor them in the ways of being a professional, as well as pairing up with former teammate in both Carolina and the Buckeyes Ted Ginn from the offense.  These guys can try and bring the team together sharing their past experiences as our team is actually quite young outside of a few players.

This doesn't even touch on the subject that we might end up adding even more Ohio State players to the roster through this draft as guys like Sam Hubbard would help a need at DE for us, guys like Jerome Baker in the later rounds to add depth to our injury prone linebackers, as well as possibly someone like Denzel Ward having a random fall in the draft as is often known to happen due to teams making runs on positions like CB, WR, LB, etc that will almost assuredly happen this draft.

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On 4/16/2018 at 7:28 PM, Mid Iowa said:

 

I won't yell at ya, but I don't want Kenny back. I wouldn't hate it, but he's just another player. People who don't root for the Saints don't even know who he is, for a reason.

 

I agree with this for sure about Vaccaro, but feel like the same could be said from Coleman. He’s been more consistent than Kenny for sure, but I don’t remember fans of any team begging for him in free agency. I don’t think we saw him mentioned in this forum until after he signed.

 

On 4/16/2018 at 7:28 PM, Mid Iowa said:

When a guy needs to get benched in order to play hard, that's not a good sign. Not a good sign at all. I know the guy was a hammer. I know people were scared of him. But the guy has to be "in the game" to be scary, and he certainly was, about half the time.

I agree with this too, which is why I felt like we could’ve brought him back on a one year deal or 2 with an easy out after 1. I definitely didn’t want him to be the future at the position but I feel his upside is still there. 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/17/2018 at 6:04 AM, Raves said:

If you are looking at it just based on money and level of play, there might be a case for Vaccaro over Coleman depending on what Vaccaro actually signs for, it would need to be under $3 mil/yr for me to consider that argument though,

Sure, but if halfway through midseason when Kenny was beasting, before his groin injury, we had people literally thinking he might command $8m or more per year. I get that he didn't close out the year like that and things have changed since then, but this shows his ceiling in his role here. $3m is very fair for that kind of potential, even if inconsistent, and we probably could've got him for that. The fact that I already feel like we overpaid Coleman makes it even worse for me.

Quote

but you are still missing other aspects that Coleman has that Vaccaro can't/hasn't brought to the table.

I get what you're saying. I don't know if I'm necessarily missing the other things Coleman offers, I'm just not putting quite as much into it until I see the results on the field. I definitely see the value in veteran leadership, so if it works out like you're saying it will, we'll be in great shape. 

On 4/17/2018 at 6:04 AM, Raves said:

For starters you he plays at a consistently level throughout an entire season.

And it just so happens that meant consistently bad last season. 

On 4/17/2018 at 6:04 AM, Raves said:

Coleman also brings leadership and experience to our young secondary, sure Vaccaro has a few years under his belt but nothing he's done has shouted leader to me nor has his play shown much experience.  Then you add in the Ohio State connection where he is joining many other players that are already on our roster, to include arguably our best defensive player in Lattimore and our likely safety of the future in Vonn Bell where Coleman can help tutor them in the ways of being a professional, as well as pairing up with former teammate in both Carolina and the Buckeyes Ted Ginn from the offense.  These guys can try and bring the team together sharing their past experiences as our team is actually quite young outside of a few players.

This doesn't even touch on the subject that we might end up adding even more Ohio State players to the roster through this draft as guys like Sam Hubbard would help a need at DE for us, guys like Jerome Baker in the later rounds to add depth to our injury prone linebackers, as well as possibly someone like Denzel Ward having a random fall in the draft as is often known to happen due to teams making runs on positions like CB, WR, LB, etc that will almost assuredly happen this draft.

Like I said, if it all plays out like this that's gonna work out great for us. IMO you're putting a lot of faith in this OSU team building strategy. It's served us well the last couple drafts, but I think the Coleman overypay is where we got a little too cute with it. I hope I'm wrong. 

Edited by domepatrol91

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@domepatrol91 last season he was bad, but he also had the worst CB play of his entire career and was trying to compensate for it which left him burnt alot.  Vaccaro on the other hand had the best CB play of his career and still had to be benched several times due to not being able to perform his specific tasks at an adequate level.

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9 minutes ago, Raves said:

@domepatrol91 last season he was bad, but he also had the worst CB play of his entire career and was trying to compensate for it which left him burnt alot.  Vaccaro on the other hand had the best CB play of his career and still had to be benched several times due to not being able to perform his specific tasks at an adequate level.

Kenny also played some of the best ball of his career last year as well. His biggest struggles were after his groin injury and early in the season when the entire defense was trying to find it's footing. 

I'm not arguing that hes a consistent or even good player, just that for what it appears he's going to be asking we should've brought him back. Especially if our only other option was overpaying Coleman coming off a terrible year. 

 

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Yeah, he had a knee. MCL. So do you want top performance from a guy with a bum knee?

I don't know. I'm not gonna sing praises until I see him with this defense, but I know KV has been like a light switch, on & off so much that we all were questioning what was going on. That's just not good enough.

You want proof on why KV should have been replaced? Look at his current offer sheet.

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