Packerraymond Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: Brady doesn't get to 5 Super Bowls if he doesn't take significantly less than he's worth. Despite your delusions. If a QB was more important than defense, Manning would have won 5 Super Bowls. Bree's would have won 4. Rodgers would have won three by now. All the evidence in the history of the Super Bowl agrees with me, and yet some of you continue to insist that a QB is the most important aspect to a Super Bowl winning team. The Jaguars and Vikings are prime examples of what happens to good defense that has a mediocre QB. The franchise QB is still the first step, then building an average defense. Tom Brady has more of a cap hit this year than Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 1 minute ago, Scoremore said: Put on the tape of the Dallas game last year. Still want to trade Rodgers? The guy single handedly tilts the field. It would take a lot to trade him away. Kizer? Are you kidding me? Understand the logic but it is flawed. It's really hard to find a franchise QB let alone one of the best in the league. Have nothing behind Aaron so trading him is not an option right now. We should begin the process of looking for his eventual replacement. It will take awhile. Next years QB's are looking pretty good. Ideally we draft the next guy and groom him for 2-3 years. However even then there are no guarantees until he hits the field. Most likely we'll go through a couple of QB's until we hit on one next time around. Earliest we could even consider trading Aaron is not for a couple of years yet and only if we have something behind him. Hey Score. Lets give Kizer a chance to take a few breaths in Green Bay before we toss him out based on a rookie year with Cleveland. Another factor to keep in the back of our minds is the offensive playbook is getting tweaked by MM & Philbin. Lets allow Kizer an opportunity to learn and perform under it. Dont think he's considered the next starting QB. Rather, its hoped he can bring a better game than Hundley when and if pressed into service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, Packerraymond said: The Jaguars and Vikings are prime examples of what happens to good defense that has a mediocre QB. They get to the Championship games? Bortles is a bottom 12 QB in this league and was 4 points away from the Super Bowl. The Eagles are a good example of what happens to good defense that has an average QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyers0909 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: They get to the Championship games? Bortles is a bottom 12 QB in this league and was 4 points away from the Super Bowl. The Eagles are a good example of what happens to good defense that has an average QB. We've made it to the championship twice in the past 4 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, flyers0909 said: We've made it to the championship twice in the past 4 years. How many of them did Rodgers win? The time we went to the Championship game before that, the best thing Rodgers did was tackle Urlacher on the interception he threw to him. We wouldn't have won that game if our defense hadn't knocked Cutler out, if Shields didn't have two interceptions, if Raji didn't return an interception for a TD... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyers0909 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: Aaron Rodgers will never win a Super Bowl without a top 12 scoring defense. Ever. A top 5 scoring defense could absolutely win a Super Bowl without Rodgers. It's happened 40+ times. How can you say that when Peyton (x2), Eli, and Brees (Flacco did it with the 12th ranked) have done it within the past 12 years? And your comparison is completely one sided with the Rodgers condition, how many times has a top 5 scoring defense won a Super Bowl without a Top 12 QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 36 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: They get to the Championship games? Bortles is a bottom 12 QB in this league and was 4 points away from the Super Bowl. The Eagles are a good example of what happens to good defense that has an average QB. Who was their average QB? The guy through the first dozen games who was #1 in the MVP candidate or the guy in the playoffs who completed over 70% of his passes and was a WR dropped INT away from a QBR well over 120? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, flyers0909 said: How can you say that when Peyton (x2), Eli, and Brees (Flacco did it with the 12th ranked) have done it within the past 12 years? How can I say that? Like this: Peyton Manning - 8 points, 6 points, 27 points, 17 points. That's how many points the Colts defense allowed. Peyton Manning threw 7 interceptions and 3 touchdowns in four games that postseason. His second one? 16 points, 18 points, 10 points. Manning threw 2 touchdowns and 1 interception in three games to get that second ring. Eli - 14, 17, 20 and 14 are the point totals Eli's Giants allowed for the first one. 14 points to the best offense of all-time in the Super Bowl. Eli take 2 - 2 points, 20 points, 17 points, 17 points. Seeing a trend yet? Brees - 14, 28, 17. The one outlier, the 28 point game, Saints wouldn't have won if they hadn't beat Favre half to death and picked him off at the end. Flacco - Do I really have to defend Flacco's Super Bowl? Flacco winning is literally my entire point. Joe Flacco... JOE FLACCO ... had a postseason in which he threw 11 touchdowns and 0 interceptions. His Ravens defense also held the Colts to 9 and the Patriots to 13 in that postseason. He wouldn't have gotten past Manning unless that Bronco didn't have the worst defensive play in playoff history at the end. Ravens also had a pick six (and another interception) against Manning, and 7 of the 34 points they allowed to those Broncos came on a kick return. So yeah... Thanks for bringing Flacco up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, Packerraymond said: Who was their average QB? The guy through the first dozen games who was #1 in the MVP candidate or the guy in the playoffs who completed over 70% of his passes and was a WR dropped INT away from a QBR well over 120? Remind me what everyone thought of Foles before he became the starter. You're making my point for me. You want to be steering the conversation towards Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Drew Brees. You don't want to be steering this conversation towards Nick Foles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 1 minute ago, HorizontoZenith said: Remind me what everyone thought of Foles before he became the starter. You're making my point for me. You want to be steering the conversation towards Peyton Manning and Tom Brady and Drew Brees. You don't want to be steering this conversation towards Nick Foles. So your point is that the best way to win a SB is to find a middling QB who has shown some signs of greatness and hope that he regains his greatness to win you a SB? Philly's defense in the playoffs was elite vs MN, average vs ATL and just bad vs New England. Nick Foles won him that SB. Also your point that Jax/MN's defense "gets you to the championship game" while ignoring that Rodgers had done that 2 of the last 3 years before his injury is more spin from you. If that's your goal, you should love Rodgers. Fact is, SB winning teams play average to above average defense, but outside of Manning the QB play is elite. Do you trust an all world QB to win a shootout on a day where your D is off, or your top 5 defense to shutout another team when your mediocre QB is having an awful day? I easily take the QB every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesehawk Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Give me 3 more years with Rodgers, then I will actually consider entertaining the idea of him not being here. Until then, it's ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vegas492 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 HZ, I think you make some very good, strong points. If that trade were offered, for this year, GB would be foolish not to take it. I've said as much in the past on here in a different thread, too. Why? There are quarterbacks in this class that legitimately can be franchise guys. That isn't the case every year. If you look at the past few drafts, those top QBs have worked out pretty darned nicely. Wentz and Goff for sure. Watson. There is a trend in the NFL now where you can take the rookie and be quite good very quickly. Obviously this won't happen, but still it is fun to think about and that trade for Rodgers would net quite the haul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyers0909 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 22 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: 6 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said: How can I say that? Like this: Peyton Manning - 8 points, 6 points, 27 points, 17 points. That's how many points the Colts defense allowed. Peyton Manning threw 7 interceptions and 3 touchdowns in four games that postseason. His second one? 16 points, 18 points, 10 points. Manning threw 2 touchdowns and 1 interception in three games to get that second ring. Eli - 14, 17, 20 and 14 are the point totals Eli's Giants allowed for the first one. 14 points to the best offense of all-time in the Super Bowl. Eli take 2 - 2 points, 20 points, 17 points, 17 points. Seeing a trend yet? Brees - 14, 28, 17. The one outlier, the 28 point game, Saints wouldn't have won if they hadn't beat Favre half to death and picked him off at the end. Flacco - Do I really have to defend Flacco's Super Bowl? Flacco winning is literally my entire point. Joe Flacco... JOE FLACCO ... had a postseason in which he threw 11 touchdowns and 0 interceptions. His Ravens defense also held the Colts to 9 and the Patriots to 13 in that postseason. He wouldn't have gotten past Manning unless that Bronco didn't have the worst defensive play in playoff history at the end. Ravens also had a pick six (and another interception) against Manning, and 7 of the 34 points they allowed to those Broncos came on a kick return. So yeah... Thanks for bringing Flacco up. Peyton - Terrible performance, defense definitely carried Eli v1 - Offense averaged 21 points, Eli threw 6TDs to 1INT Eli v2 - Offense averaged 25ish points, Eli threw 9TDs to 1INT Brees - Offense averaged 35ish points, 8TDs to 0INT Flacco - Offense averaged 31ish points, like you said 11TD to 0INT So yeah, the defenses played well but so did the QBs (except for Peyton) The defense obviously needs to get better, but according to you we need to trade away one of the best QBs in the league for draft picks. Hit on those draft picks so we have a dominant defense, hit on the QB we draft so he is a top 12/average guy, and then ensure that the QB rises up and plays great to amazing in the postseason. We have an open avenue where we combine elite QB play (already have it) with a top 12 defense, or we gamble and pray we hit the lottery on draft picks and that everything comes together so we get an elite defense and an above average QB. Seems to me like the optimal path is to work to improve this defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fattlipp Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 19 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: Who was their average QB? The guy through the first dozen games who was #1 in the MVP candidate or the guy in the playoffs who completed over 70% of his passes and was a WR dropped INT away from a QBR well over 120? Are you saying the street free agent that nobody wanted who hadn't had a good game since mid season with Chip Kellys Eagles run is above average?, Its all Pederson's play calling...Foles will bust when he moves on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 Just now, flyers0909 said: Peyton - Terrible performance, defense definitely carried Eli v1 - Offense averaged 21 points, Eli threw 6TDs to 1INT Eli v2 - Offense averaged 25ish points, Eli threw 9TDs to 1INT Brees - Offense averaged 35ish points, 8TDs to 0INT Flacco - Offense averaged 31ish points, like you said 11TD to 0INT So yeah, the defenses played well but so did the QBs (except for Peyton) The defense obviously needs to get better, but according to you we need to trade away one of the best QBs in the league for draft picks. Hit on those draft picks so we have a dominant defense, hit on the QB we draft so he is a top 12/average guy, and then ensure that the QB rises up and plays great to amazing in the postseason. We have an open avenue where we combine elite QB play (already have it) with a top 12 defense, or we gamble and pray we hit the lottery on draft picks and that everything comes together so we get an elite defense and an above average QB. Seems to me like the optimal path is to work to improve this defense. Exactly! The notion that it is easier to rebuild rather than simply playing top 16 defense is ridiculous. The defense needs a little more talent, it will need a ton more if you dump Rodgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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