Jump to content

Andrew Norwell to giants considered a DONE DEAL?


Nyg856

Recommended Posts

This would be great, especially for under $60m. But I'll wait until it's official to get too excited. Also, we better bring back 2/3 of Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker. Pugh being the most important. With all FOUR of them that's a pretty solid line. Just need a LT. I wonder what the plan is for Flowers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, w4rrior723 said:

This would be great, especially for under $60m. But I'll wait until it's official to get too excited. Also, we better bring back 2/3 of Pugh, Richburg, and Fluker. Pugh being the most important. With all FOUR of them that's a pretty solid line. Just need a LT. I wonder what the plan is for Flowers.

How are we going to afford Pugh and Norwell? Pugh can get the same or similar as Norwell on the open market. Richburg is also the top rated C on the market.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, celestial said:

How are we going to afford Pugh and Norwell? Pugh can get the same or similar as Norwell on the open market. Richburg is also the top rated C on the market.

The o-line is a priority and Gettleman knows that. The money needs to be spent, and there isn't a more important place to spend it. We spent hundreds of millions on skill positions the last couple years, and look where that's gotten us. 3-13 picking #2. Spend the money on the line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, w4rrior723 said:

The o-line is a priority and Gettleman knows that. The money needs to be spent, and there isn't a more important place to spend it. We spent hundreds of millions on skill positions the last couple years, and look where that's gotten us. 3-13 picking #2. Spend the money on the line.

Dolphins spent money on their line and didn't go anywhere because neither Cutler nor Tannehill are good enough to justify the adjustment. So we're investing unprecedented $$$ into the line, and taking away from quality in other positions in the process. This all so Eli can play average to at best a little above average, which he has done for the last 7 years (he has had good lines some of these years too). 

We can't win a SB with that level of play from Eli, which is what we're going to  get regardless of line investment. So I don't understand why we're investing so much in the line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, celestial said:

Dolphins spent money on their line and didn't go anywhere because neither Cutler nor Tannehill are good enough to justify the adjustment. So we're investing unprecedented $$$ into the line, and taking away from quality in other positions in the process. This all so Eli can play average to at best a little above average, which he has done for the last 7 years (he has had good lines some of these years too). 

We can't win a SB with that level of play from Eli, which is what we're going to  get regardless of line investment. So I don't understand why we're investing so much in the line.

You're talking about a team that went into the season with Jay Cutler starting at QB lol. Also, Pugh isn't going to earn a ridiculous contract. I'd be surprised if he got a contract bigger than Norwells.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, celestial said:

Dolphins spent money on their line and didn't go anywhere because neither Cutler nor Tannehill are good enough to justify the adjustment. So we're investing unprecedented $$$ into the line, and taking away from quality in other positions in the process. This all so Eli can play average to at best a little above average, which he has done for the last 7 years (he has had good lines some of these years too). 

We can't win a SB with that level of play from Eli, which is what we're going to  get regardless of line investment. So I don't understand why we're investing so much in the line.

Um, run game? Screens finally? 5-7step drops? All adds to things we couldn’t do before

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, w4rrior723 said:

You're talking about a team that went into the season with Jay Cutler starting at QB lol. Also, Pugh isn't going to earn a ridiculous contract. I'd be surprised if he got a contract bigger than Norwells.

I sort of see Eli about the same as Cutler. Their accuracy, footwork and turnover problems are about the same, only that Cutler's arm is stronger when he's in shape. Last year Cutler threw for 62% completion rate & had 19 turnovers last year. In 2016, with a healthy team, Eli had a similar stat line: 63% completion and 24 turnovers. So this is where I don't see the sense. In terms of Pugh, he can play well at guard and tackle so his market should be robust. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, celestial said:

I sort of see Eli about the same as Cutler. Their accuracy, footwork and turnover problems are about the same, only that Cutler's arm is stronger when he's in shape. Last year Cutler threw for 62% completion rate & had 19 turnovers last year. In 2016, with a healthy team, Eli had a similar stat line: 63% completion and 24 turnovers. So this is where I don't see the sense. In terms of Pugh, he can play well at guard and tackle so his market should be robust. 

Man, comparing Eli to Jay Cutler is a ballsy move on a Giants forum lol. Needless to say, it's blasphemous. First of all, you said yourself the Dolphins invested serious money on the o-line while the Giants had one of the worst units in the league for the last two years. Second, Eli also had a much worse running game in 2016 (and 2017) than the Dolphins last year. Third, Eli had 20 turnovers in 2016 (16 Ints, 4 Fumbles lost) so I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.

Either way, simply looking at stats and saying "yep, they're the same" is insanely flawed. I guarantee you 100% of the league would rather have Eli than Cutler, right now, or ever.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, w4rrior723 said:

Man, comparing Eli to Jay Cutler is a ballsy move on a Giants forum lol. Needless to say, it's blasphemous. First of all, you said yourself the Dolphins invested serious money on the o-line while the Giants had one of the worst units in the league for the last two years. Second, Eli also had a much worse running game in 2016 (and 2017) than the Dolphins last year. Third, Eli had 20 turnovers in 2016 (16 Ints, 4 Fumbles lost) so I don't know where you are getting your numbers from.

Either way, simply looking at stats and saying "yep, they're the same" is insanely flawed. I guarantee you 100% of the league would rather have Eli than Cutler, right now, or ever.

 

You're right, lol. Cutler is a decent vet QB though, so in context it's not an insult to compare him to Eli. Cutler's stats look like Eli's almost every year, not just last year. Also, Dolphins' running game was the same or worse than the Giants' last year. In 2016 I count Eli's 16 INTs + 7 fumbles (fumble recovery is luck and so I count it as a potential turnover for both Cutler and Eli), that's 23 turnovers for Eli in 2016. 

If you look at the numbers, they're about the same, but if you think otherwise I can understand why you're happy about the Norwell signing and investing all our money there. I should add, however, that the league voted Eli the most overrated starting QB in the NFL only last year. So I doubt 100% of the league takes Eli over Cutler. Cutler started last year and most of the league took him above Eli when it came to voting.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, celestial said:

You're right, lol. Cutler is a decent vet QB though, so in context it's not an insult to compare him to Eli. Cutler's stats look like Eli's almost every year, not just last year. Also, Dolphins' running game was the same or worse than the Giants' last year. In 2016 I count Eli's 16 INTs + 7 fumbles (fumble recovery is luck and so I count it as a potential turnover for both Cutler and Eli), that's 23 turnovers for Eli in 2016. 

If you look at the numbers, they're about the same, but if you think otherwise I can understand why you're happy about the Norwell signing and investing all our money there. I should add, however, that the league voted Eli the most overrated starting QB in the NFL only last year. So I doubt 100% of the league takes Eli over Cutler. Cutler started last year and most of the league took him above Eli when it came to voting.

 

 

So in your stats, do tipped balls also count as Interceptions too? Also, do you still add a TD to his stats when a WR drops one in the end zone? Really, I'm curious...

 

I haven't heard of this "Most Overrated" vote you're referring to. I'd love to see the source. But what I have heard of is current and former players from around the league outraging when Eli was benched. I don't remember hearing a peep when Jay was cut. I could be wrong, though ??‍♂️

As for comparing their career stats:

Seasons with 90+ QB rating

Eli: 4

Cutler 1

Seasons with 25+ TD:

Eli: 7

Cutler: 3

Then there's, ya know, the 2 Superbowl MVPs and Jay has never come close to the level of play Eli displayed in both playoff runs.

... Sooo, yeah... Blasphemous.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, w4rrior723 said:

So in your stats, do tipped balls also count as Interceptions too? Also, do you still add a TD to his stats when a WR drops one in the end zone? Really, I'm curious...

 

I haven't heard of this "Most Overrated" vote you're referring to. I'd love to see the source. But what I have heard of is current and former players from around the league outraging when Eli was benched. I don't remember hearing a peep when Jay was cut. I could be wrong, though ??‍♂️

As for comparing their career stats:

Seasons with 90+ QB rating

Eli: 4

Cutler 1

Seasons with 25+ TD:

Eli: 7

Cutler: 3

Then there's, ya know, the 2 Superbowl MVPs and Jay has never come close to the level of play Eli displayed in both playoff runs.

... Sooo, yeah... Blasphemous.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/10/nfl-quarterbacks-espn-survey-overrated-eli-manning-giants

^
That's the source. Eli voted most overrated QB by NFL players in 2017.

Eli has played more seasons than Cutler (Eli has 7000 career snaps vs. Cutler's 4900) so by that metric alone Eli is likely to have more 90+ QB rating seasons. ' Also, a QB will get more TDs if he throws the ball more, so counting TDs per season is often just a function of how often a QB throws. 

A quicker, cleaner and easier (not the best but better) way to measure QB ability  is career QB rating:


Eli's career QB rating: 83.5

Cutler's career QB rating: 85.3

So across Eli and Cutler's career--across than 7000 Eli snaps and 4900 Cutler snaps  -- Eli and Cutler perform about the same. The statistical chances they are dissimilar QBs, in the way you think they are, is mathematically closer to 0 than not. Math is undefeated bruh. So that's where I'm at in terms of investing in the line.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, celestial said:

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2017/10/nfl-quarterbacks-espn-survey-overrated-eli-manning-giants

^
That's the source. Eli voted most overrated QB by NFL players in 2017.

Eli has played more seasons than Cutler (Eli has 7000 career snaps vs. Cutler's 4900) so by that metric alone Eli is likely to have more 90+ QB rating seasons. ' Also, a QB will get more TDs if he throws the ball more, so counting TDs per season is often just a function of how often a QB throws. 

A quicker, cleaner and easier (not the best but better) way to measure QB ability  is career QB rating:


Eli's career QB rating: 83.5

Cutler's career QB rating: 85.3

So across Eli and Cutler's career--across than 7000 Eli snaps and 4900 Cutler snaps  -- Eli and Cutler perform about the same. The statistical chances they are dissimilar QBs, in the way you think they are, is mathematically closer to 0 than not. Math is undefeated bruh. So that's where I'm at in terms of investing in the line.

 Lol hadn't heard of that before. Thanks for sharing. Btw I saw this from the same article:

"NFL players don’t seem to be too fond of Cutler. He absolutely dominated the “Who is the one QB you wouldn’t want to be teammates with?” poll. The Dolphins QB received 42% of the vote. Philip Rivers and Cam Newton were tied for second with only 6% of the vote."

As for comparing Eli/Jay: You seem to put so much importance on QB rating, yet ignore the fact that Eli has had FAR more successful seasons than Jay from a QBR standpoint. 

Overall career averages can be misleading. The fact that Eli has more successful seasons shows that he has had a longer and better peak. 

It's also absurd to "punish" Eli for having more attempts per season. It's more difficult to maintain a higher rating/percentages with HIGHER volume. If anything it should be another check in Eli's column. Also, it displays that the team has more confidence with giving Eli more. Eli is also one of the most reliable QBs in the history of the sport. Another reason he has more attempts, and another check in his column.

Elis only been in the league 2 more seasons. How many more 90+ QBR and/or 25 TD seasons do you anticipate Cutler having if he takes another couple thousands pass attempts or 2 more seasons? How many playoff wins and Superbowl MVP? What will his playoff stats look like at that point? Please, for your own sake... Don't compare the two.

Also, you never did answer my questions about how you count pass deflections and dropped TDs in your stats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, w4rrior723 said:

 Lol hadn't heard of that before. Thanks for sharing. Btw I saw this from the same article:

"NFL players don’t seem to be too fond of Cutler. He absolutely dominated the “Who is the one QB you wouldn’t want to be teammates with?” poll. The Dolphins QB received 42% of the vote. Philip Rivers and Cam Newton were tied for second with only 6% of the vote."

As for comparing Eli/Jay: You seem to put so much importance on QB rating, yet ignore the fact that Eli has had FAR more successful seasons than Jay from a QBR standpoint. 

Overall career averages can be misleading. The fact that Eli has more successful seasons shows that he has had a longer and better peak. 

It's also absurd to "punish" Eli for having more attempts per season. It's more difficult to maintain a higher rating/percentages with HIGHER volume. If anything it should be another check in Eli's column. Also, it displays that the team has more confidence with giving Eli more. Eli is also one of the most reliable QBs in the history of the sport. Another reason he has more attempts, and another check in his column.

How many more 90+ QBR and/or 25 TD seasons do you anticipate Cutler having if he takes another couple thousands pass attempts? How many playoff wins and Superbowl MVP? What will his playoff stats look like at that point? Please, for your own sake... Don't compare the two.

Also, you never did answer my questions about how you count pass deflections and dropped TDs in your stats.

We're talking about QB ability though, not whether NFL players like Tebow as a teammate more than they like Cutler, Rivers or Newton as teammates. Suffice to say, that's not a relevant question. 

If we only factor in Eli's first 10 years to Cutler's 10 years, Eli and Cutler still register about the same QB rating. So after trying to adjust for attempts, nothing really changes. It shouldn't either because that's how the math goes. 

Eli's playoff career rating is 87 , that's basically the same as Cutler's career QB rating of 85. They're the same QB bruh lol.  Superbowls, playoff wins, etc can be as much a team win as a QB win. I'm just saying I think Eli and Cutler are about the same vet QB. That's not some crazy idea as the NFL survey and math tells you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, celestial said:

We're talking about QB ability though, not whether NFL players like Tebow as a teammate more than they like Cutler, Rivers or Newton as teammates. Suffice to say, that's not a relevant question. 

If we only factor in Eli's first 12 years to Cutler's 12 years, Eli and Cutler still register about the same QB rating. So after trying to adjust for attempts, nothing really changes. It shouldn't either because that's how the math goes. 

Eli's playoff career rating is 87 , that's basically the same as Cutler's career QB rating of 65. They're the same QB bruh lol.  Superbowls, playoff wins, etc can be as much a team win as a QB win. 

Still didn't answer my question about how you count your stats...

And once again, Eli has had a much better and longer peak than Cutler. Eli has 3 seasons with 90qbr/4000yards/25TD. Cutler has 0. Cutler doesn't even have a single season with 30 TDs! And only one season with 4k yards! They may have similar career averages. But once again, that can be diluted by other factors. Their peaks are NOT EVEN CLOSE... Math is undefeated bruh.

 

Also, your survey says no one wants Cutler as their QB. That's a much worse endorsement than being overrated. Saquon Barkley is currently being "overrated." There's still about 32 NFL teams that would love him in their roster. So you can stop mentioning that survey as if it makes your point stronger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...