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NickButera

Jordy Nelson signed. Crabtree cut.

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40 minutes ago, G said:

Looking at Cooper and Jones's first 3 seasons, I'm feeling pretty good about the direction. Wait Jones is #1?!? Not back then it was Roddy White...

Lumping our 3 was seeing what 'TEAM' because it is a team sport...What teams top 3 would you rather have. Rams Donald, Goff and Gurley? I'd still take ours...

 

You've already compared Cooper to HOFer Tim Brown now your comparing Cooper to one of the most dominant WR's in the game...  Nothing more needs to be said other than, come on man!

You feel good about Cooper season last year?  A season where outside of 2 games averaged 25 yards a game.  That to you is encouraging and in the likeness of HOFer Tim Brown lol

What top 3 would I rather have?  That question is ridiculous and trust me picking this trio has little to do with Cooper.  

Edited by Frankie2Gunz

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3 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

 

You feel good about Cooper season last year? 

Yes because he's been injured a lot but still makes it onto the field even if not 80%

Who should I compare Cooper to? Bryant? He BLOWS MB out of the water. If MB is a #1 then it's because Jordy and Cooper are injured...

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7 hours ago, G said:

Yes because he's been injured a lot but still makes it onto the field even if not 80%

Who should I compare Cooper to? Bryant? He BLOWS MB out of the water. If MB is a #1 then it's because Jordy and Cooper are injured...

I see...  Tons of logic used in your rebuttal.  Facts, we don't need no stinking facts, we use emoting and irrational thinking to prove points around here.  Thanks for enlightening me with more lame excuses as to why Cooper has underwhelmed.  

It's also good to know that Cooper "blows MB out of the water".  Why you say that I have no clue but regardless you're starting to sway me, keep it coming.  O.o

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1 hour ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

  Why you say that I have no clue but regardless you're starting to sway me, keep it coming.  O.o

I don't see where I said you have no clue. I just think you have a preference for taller WR's that's all. We all know that. LOL

Cooper is a very good WR but hasn't lived up to his full potiential, we all agree on that.

Not trying to change anyones mind as I know that's not really possible. Just having some fun when tossing back a few drinks yesterday. :D

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36 minutes ago, G said:

I don't see where I said you have no clue. I just think you have a preference for taller WR's that's all. We all know that. LOL

Cooper is a very good WR but hasn't lived up to his full potiential, we all agree on that.

Not trying to change anyones mind as I know that's not really possible. Just having some fun when tossing back a few drinks yesterday. :D

It's all in good fun and I love to debate, as you can tell :) 

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It is fun watching you two go back and forth with one another... I think the thing to consider is we got better at an area that is pivotal to our offensive (and QBs) growth.  We lost a 31 year old diva.  Inked a 33 YO professional, traded for a 26 year old potential freak/enigma boom bust type.  Added depth in Switzer who is kinda the swiss army knife type.  Ateman in the draft... a young red zone target to develop.  

 

IDK who is the better player between Coop or Bryant.  Honestly I don't know that I care.  I think you need to keep in mind that having guys who are capable and 1-4 Coop, Nelson/Bryant Switzer, hell even Roberts has shown SOMETHING.  I don't think we're a team that is going to have a number one game breaker.  But we have options for Carr to go to in crunch time.  To me it is kinda like having multiple #2 WRs.  Which isn't bad.  Coop, Nelson, and Bryant will all command attention.  Provided health, I think it can be one of the deadliest groups in the league.  As a UNIT.

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Fun debate to read! I'm gonna cop out and be right in the middle of Frankie and G. The fact is, it's hard to compare the two because they are VERY different receivers. MB is like THE living embodiment of what a Split End is supposed to be. Most of the true "#1" WRs in NFL history were Split End, so it's easy to understand where Frankie is coming from with his "#1" WR argument.  This is why I agree with Frankie that Coop may never be a "true" "#1" WR. I think that last year Coop was trying to be something he wasn't. Remember last off-season when there were a bunch of reports about how Amari had beefed up? Shame on the coaching staff for encouraging it, because it took away his best asset. He lost his shifty route running just so he could MAYBE fight off the press/win more jump battles, things SPLIT ENDS do well.. Instead the solution should've been to put him as he was where he would succeed, where he wouldn't be jammed and where he'd have more open field to use his speed/shifty skill set, THE SLOT! I only hope the damage isn't done and he worked hard on getting his agility and route running back to where it was in his first season. If he does, it's a lock that Coop will have more yards than MB.

Again, Frankie is right that MB is likely to face the #1 CB on the opposing defense. However, I think this is more of a scheme decision than a decision based on talent. And yes, MB will force some blanket coverage because you have to respect his speed, but you know that the second the defense moves their #1 CB/start blanketing Coop, Carr is going to float one to MB. The definition of a mutually beneficial relationship.

All of this tied together, who benefits the most from MB? COOP! Because he is benefiting from MB does that mean he is a lesser receiver? NO! It means we have a team who is using their assets to benefit the TEAM in the best way possible. 

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1 hour ago, raiders4life said:

Fun debate to read! I'm gonna cop out and be right in the middle of Frankie and G. The fact is, it's hard to compare the two because they are VERY different receivers. MB is like THE living embodiment of what a Split End is supposed to be. Most of the true "#1" WRs in NFL history were Split End, so it's easy to understand where Frankie is coming from with his "#1" WR argument.  This is why I agree with Frankie that Coop may never be a "true" "#1" WR. I think that last year Coop was trying to be something he wasn't. Remember last off-season when there were a bunch of reports about how Amari had beefed up? Shame on the coaching staff for encouraging it, because it took away his best asset. He lost his shifty route running just so he could MAYBE fight off the press/win more jump battles, things SPLIT ENDS do well.. Instead the solution should've been to put him as he was where he would succeed, where he wouldn't be jammed and where he'd have more open field to use his speed/shifty skill set, THE SLOT! I only hope the damage isn't done and he worked hard on getting his agility and route running back to where it was in his first season. If he does, it's a lock that Coop will have more yards than MB.

Again, Frankie is right that MB is likely to face the #1 CB on the opposing defense. However, I think this is more of a scheme decision than a decision based on talent. And yes, MB will force some blanket coverage because you have to respect his speed, but you know that the second the defense moves their #1 CB/start blanketing Coop, Carr is going to float one to MB. The definition of a mutually beneficial relationship.

All of this tied together, who benefits the most from MB? COOP! Because he is benefiting from MB does that mean he is a lesser receiver? NO! It means we have a team who is using their assets to benefit the TEAM in the best way possible. 

That's kinda what I was getting at.  Neither is a STUD or true #1. But they will feed off one another.  Teams are lucky to have two guys like this.  We have three or four potentially.  

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23 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

LOL Please explain it.  I am fascinated to see what you come up, piled on top of all of the excuses you've made for Cooper's underwhelming career so far after being the number 4th overall pick in the first round.  

 

23 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

You feel good about Cooper season last year?  A season where outside of 2 games averaged 25 yards a game.  That to you is encouraging and in the likeness of HOFer Tim Brown lol

Coop was a ghost last year and definitely disappointed, but when virtually every one of our offensive players regressed under Downing - it's hard to single him out. Carr was downright bad alot of weeks, Crabtree had one of his worst years, the offensive line play took several steps back etc. We had one of the most simplistic, uncreative offenses in the league that failed to put any of our players in positions to succeed. Louis Reddick, Kurt Warner was on record saying he'd never seen anything like it. We barely ran playaction for Christs sakes. Im not using last year as a referendum on any of our players who have produced for us in the past. There is a reason why our current coaches essentially came in an threw the tape out from last year on both sides of the ball. Coaching matters alot in this league whether you want to admit it or not.

You say Coop has had a "underwhelming career" but before last years trainwreck of a season, his numbers were generally on par with alot of the top tier WRs entering their third year.

Deandre Hopkins first two years - 128 Rec, 2012 Yards, 8 TDs.

Julio Jones - 133 Rec, 2157 Yards, 18 TDs

Dez Bryant - 108 Rec, 1489 Yards, 15 TDs

Mike Evans - 142 Rec, 2257 Yards, 15 TDs

Antonio Brown first 3 years - 151 Rec, 2062 Yards, 7 TDs

Amari Cooper - 155 Rec, 2223 Yards, 11 TDs

That's really not "underwhelming" at all. Coop posted those type of numbers while being the #2 option on the team. He wasn't out of this world amazing but he was defintely trending upward.

Im not saying it's unfair to question if Cooper will ever become a bonafide #1 but the kid is still 23 years old. 23! He has all the time in the world to grow and get better and build his body up so that he can avoid the late season injuries that cause him to fade off. I am very excited to see him in a different offense. Even when he was producing under Musgrave, I still thought he was being under utilized. He has the type of skillset that needs to be used all around the formations. He's not just a slot "randall cobb type" player that you keep trying to pigeon hole him into beause he's under 6'3

 

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Here is how I see our WR unit

1) Jordy - He is our #1 until proven otherwise.  A true professional that squeezes every last bit of production out of his potential.  Struggled without a top tier QB last year so should be interesting to see how well he does with Carr who is not as good as Rodgers but light years ahead of Hundley.

2a) Cooper - Our first potential star who has shown he can produce but not yet to the level of his draft position.  Very young and has been overlooked in the offence before because of inconsistent hands and/or bad coaching.  Capable of 1500 yards and 10-12 TDs.

2b) Bryant - One of the most physically gifted WRs in the league but has not shown much while having a great QB.  He is his own worst enemy but has every reason to get it together this year.  Will probably fall short of Copper and Nelson in yards but but could be a monster in TDs.

 

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No way is Jordy our #1 over Cooper. Another thing, I'm getting sick of all the cliches with Jordy Nelson. "A true professional", "A hard worker", "A coach on the field" "Great Locker room guy"......bottom line is can he still produce. I saw a guy who looked near done last year. His greatest remaining asset was his chemistry with Rodgers and that's over with now. I dont think he will match Crabtrees production 

 

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I see it:

1)Cooper the unquestioned number one

2) Bryant- be nice to have his size and speed out there on every play

Slot) Nelson- be easier for him to match up with number 3 corners and move the chains

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9 hours ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

No way is Jordy our #1 over Cooper. Another thing, I'm getting sick of all the cliches with Jordy Nelson. "A true professional", "A hard worker", "A coach on the field" "Great Locker room guy"......bottom line is can he still produce. I saw a guy who looked near done last year. His greatest remaining asset was his chemistry with Rodgers and that's over with now. I dont think he will match Crabtrees production 

 

I can't get on board with Jordy being our #1 option.  However in certain situations where his matchup dictates the best option, I can see that.  That's what I meant by having 3-4 guys who command attention.  They'll feed off each other.  

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1 hour ago, Totty said:

I can't get on board with Jordy being our #1 option.  However in certain situations where his matchup dictates the best option, I can see that.  That's what I meant by having 3-4 guys who command attention.  They'll feed off each other.  

I agree with you. I just had a problem with the poster saying Nelson is our  "unquestioned #1" . 

I do think, however, Nelson should be the go to guy in the redzone. He has feasted his entire career there, and we need someone to be Carrs go to guy to replace Crabs. Bryant and Cooper, to this point, havent been big redzone guys.

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1 hour ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

I agree with you. I just had a problem with the poster saying Nelson is our  "unquestioned #1" . 

I do think, however, Nelson should be the go to guy in the redzone. He has feasted his entire career there, and we need someone to be Carrs go to guy to replace Crabs. Bryant and Cooper, to this point, havent been big redzone guys.

I do not know if you are referring to me specifically or to someone else but to me if you look at the last two years played (not counting last year because all 3 WRs had down years with legitimate reasons why) Nelson is easily the best WR production wise and easily the WR with the least amount of physical advantages.  Right now he knows more football than the other 2 combined and this allows him to to still produce.  He is also the WR that Gruden and maybe Carr is going to trust the most until the other 2 prove more.  I personally believe we will see a lot of Nelson in the beginning and his looks will slowly transition to Cooper with a few going to Bryant.  This will also allow Nelson to get fresh before a possible playoff run.

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