Mike Pettine Defense

[Pugger]

9 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Dom came right in and catapulted our defense to top 10. Usually the first season is one where you can use the lack of film as a way of deception. 

Major problem to me, we don't have a single front 7 player who gets to the QB. I don't think any DC in the NFL can survive that. I can't throw a ton of blame toward Gute either, he would've had to force a reach somewhere in the draft or sit and take Davenport who I'm not sure they liked. This is a reflection of Ted's inability to acquire pass rushers. He fell in love with the type of player Matthews came into the league as, coveted the same type of thing drafting Fackrell and Biegel and they just are flat out too weak to play EDGE in the NFL. Both are off ball LBs. He had no replacement for Jones, Peppers or Neal and let them go anyway. The cupboard there is insanely bare. Every week the pressure is on the secondary to cover for 4-5 seconds and Pettine to disguise some blitz to bail out our rush.

I agree with most of your post here but was Capers' defense great after only 3 regular season games?

[TheOnlyThing]

2 hours ago, Leader said:

Major problem to me, we don't have a single front 7 player who gets to the QB   -   this is true and troubling cause losing Wilkerson will hurt and its almost impossible to correct at this stage.

This is a reflection of Ted's inability to acquire pass rushers. He had no replacement for Jones, Peppers or Neal and let them go anyway.   -   this is true and has been troubling.

The cupboard there is insanely bare   -   this is both borderline frightening and aggravating at the same time.

It's early. Too early for despair - but there are structural issues with our roster that are problematic at best.

The Redskins were missing 2 starters along the offensive line for most of yesterday's contest. The Pack finished with 0 sacks.

Last week, the Colts sacked Alex Smith 3 times.

Also last week, with Cousins throwing 48 times at Lambeau, the Pack generated 2 sacks (1 split by Alexander and Gilbert and another one by Clark).

Yesterday, the Bills destroyed that same crappy Vikes OLine in Minneapolis with 4 sacks and constant pressure.

The Pack's 4 outside linebackers are now on pace to finish the with 8 total sacks (would be 13 if Clay had not been robbed of his lone sack on the year yesterday).

Oh, and Kyler Fackrell is seeing more snaps and is up to 20% on the year to date.

If the reports on Wilkerson's ankle turn out to be true, he is likely done for the year.

It may well be too early to despair over the OLBs/pass rush, but it also very difficult too find reasons for optimism.

[Arthur Penske]

The defense has played 3 good halves of football and two bad ones. Would be nice if they could put that together.

[CWood21]

11 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

Major problem to me, we don't have a single front 7 player who gets to the QB. I don't think any DC in the NFL can survive that. I can't throw a ton of blame toward Gute either, he would've had to force a reach somewhere in the draft or sit and take Davenport who I'm not sure they liked. This is a reflection of Ted's inability to acquire pass rushers. He fell in love with the type of player Matthews came into the league as, coveted the same type of thing drafting Fackrell and Biegel and they just are flat out too weak to play EDGE in the NFL. Both are off ball LBs. He had no replacement for Jones, Peppers or Neal and let them go anyway. The cupboard there is insanely bare. Every week the pressure is on the secondary to cover for 4-5 seconds and Pettine to disguise some blitz to bail out our rush.

Aside from TJ Watt and to a lesser extent Marcus Davenport, which pass rushers have we willingly passed on?  Pass rushers don't fall in the draft, so when you have the opportunity to draft one then you have to take it.  But the EDGE class dries up really quickly.

[Packerraymond]

6 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

Aside from TJ Watt and to a lesser extent Marcus Davenport, which pass rushers have we willingly passed on?  Pass rushers don't fall in the draft, so when you have the opportunity to draft one then you have to take it.  But the EDGE class dries up really quickly.

You're telling me since we drafted Nick Perry until 2017 we had no opportunity to grab a pass rusher in the draft, trade or FA? I'm OK not killing Gute over 1 year of declining to reach, but eventually you have to do it. You can't leave that position in the mess Ted left it in, he had 5 years to do something and he failed.

[CWood21]

Just now, Packerraymond said:

You're telling me since we drafted Nick Perry until 2017 we had no opportunity to grab a pass rusher in the draft, trade or FA? I'm OK not killing Gute over 1 year of declining to reach, but eventually you have to do it. You can't leave that position in the mess Ted left it in, he had 5 years to do something and he failed.

I'm telling you're either overdrafting a player well before where they are supposed to go OR you're drastically overpaying in FA.  Trust me, I'm as irritated as anyone about the lack of options, but acting like it's a quick fix is off base.  Realistically speaking, you're not going to find a rotational pass rusher outside of the first few rounds of the draft.  Dating back to 2012, let's look at all the EDGE rushers who were available.

2012: Courtney Upshaw, Andre Branch, Vinny Curry, Olivier Vernon, Tyrone Crawford, Jake Bequette
2013: Tank Carradine, Jamie Collins, Margus Hunt, Damontre Moore, Corey Lemonier, Sam Montgomery,
2014: Dee Ford, Marcus Smith, DeMarcus Lawrence, Kyle Van Noy, Trent Murphy, Jeremiah Attaochu, Kony Ealy, Scott Crichton, 
2015: Preston Smith, Hau'Oli Kikaha, Nate Orchard, Markus Golden, Randy Gregory, Frank Clark, Ogba Odighizuwa, Eli Harold, Lorenzo Mauldin, Danielle Hunter
2016: Emmanuel Ogbah, Kevin Dodd, Noah Spence, Kamalei Correa, Carl Nassib, Yannick Ngakoue, Shilique Calhoun, Kyler Fackrell
2017: Tyus Bowser, Ryan Anderson, DeMarcus Walker, Tanoh Kpassagnon, Dawaune Smooth, Jordan Willis, Daeshon Hall, Tim Williams, Tarell Basham, Derek Rivers, Trey Hendrickson

That's literally a mess of prospects.  The only reason we're saying this is because our picks didn't pan out.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

6 minutes ago, Packerraymond said:

You're telling me since we drafted Nick Perry until 2017 we had no opportunity to grab a pass rusher in the draft, trade or FA? I'm OK not killing Gute over 1 year of declining to reach, but eventually you have to do it. You can't leave that position in the mess Ted left it in, he had 5 years to do something and he failed.

Ted went after pass rushers.  The problem is they never developed.

Datone Jones came in advertised as the ideal 3-4 end, with the quick first step, and while he was serviceable, never really developed into the guy they could count on.  To an extent, Jerel Worthy was going to be the guy with the quick first step that could be disruptive in the center of the line.  Then there was Thornton- a third round pick that was a total miss.

We have had a certain amount of roster rot due to picks that never produced the playmakers, unlike Minnesota for example that found edge rushers with something like 4th or 5th round picks.

Capers also had the advantage of having some talent there when he arrived.  Aaron Kampman wasn't the "ideal" 3-4 OLB, but was a very accomplished edge rusher, and that in and of itself helped Clay Matthews early on .  

Pettine has to oversee a rebuild on the defense, so he needs to be given time.  There was too much to fill in this last off season alone.

[CWood21]

1 minute ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

We have had a certain amount of roster rot due to picks that never produced the playmakers, unlike Minnesota for example that found edge rushers with something like 4th or 5th round picks.

What Minnesota did developing Everson Griffen and Danielle Hunter is nothing short of impressive.  You don't find starting-caliber pass rushers that late in the draft, let alone multiple ones.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just now, CWood21 said:

What Minnesota did developing Everson Griffen and Danielle Hunter is nothing short of impressive.  You don't find starting-caliber pass rushers that late in the draft, let alone multiple ones.

True, but to a a certain extent, developing a dominant super bowl roster involves getting some picks to over perform their draft status and have players on first contracts that over perform the rookie contract.

The luck just wasn't with us for a few years.

[Norm]

Brice sucks, that is all.

[Striker]

2 minutes ago, Norm said:

Brice sucks, that is all.

^ This.

[Striker]

16 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

I'm telling you're either overdrafting a player well before where they are supposed to go OR you're drastically overpaying in FA.  Trust me, I'm as irritated as anyone about the lack of options, but acting like it's a quick fix is off base.  Realistically speaking, you're not going to find a rotational pass rusher outside of the first few rounds of the draft.  Dating back to 2012, let's look at all the EDGE rushers who were available.

2012: Courtney Upshaw, Andre Branch, Vinny Curry, Olivier Vernon, Tyrone Crawford, Jake Bequette
2013: Tank Carradine, Jamie Collins, Margus Hunt, Damontre Moore, Corey Lemonier, Sam Montgomery,
2014: Dee Ford, Marcus Smith, DeMarcus Lawrence, Kyle Van Noy, Trent Murphy, Jeremiah Attaochu, Kony Ealy, Scott Crichton, 
2015: Preston Smith, Hau'Oli Kikaha, Nate Orchard, Markus Golden, Randy Gregory, Frank Clark, Ogba Odighizuwa, Eli Harold, Lorenzo Mauldin, Danielle Hunter
2016: Emmanuel Ogbah, Kevin Dodd, Noah Spence, Kamalei Correa, Carl Nassib, Yannick Ngakoue, Shilique Calhoun, Kyler Fackrell
2017: Tyus Bowser, Ryan Anderson, DeMarcus Walker, Tanoh Kpassagnon, Dawaune Smooth, Jordan Willis, Daeshon Hall, Tim Williams, Tarell Basham, Derek Rivers, Trey Hendrickson

That's literally a mess of prospects.  The only reason we're saying this is because our picks didn't pan out.

The one I've heard lamented a bit is Carl Lawson.

That being said, there were some legit injury concerns with him.

[Leader]

28 minutes ago, CWood21 said:

What Minnesota did developing Everson Griffen and Danielle Hunter is nothing short of impressive.  You don't find starting-caliber pass rushers that late in the draft, let alone multiple ones.

But thats the point no? Apparently you can.  It may be an "impressive effort" - probably not possible all the time - but apparently it can be done.

If we're "stuck" drafting low in rounds due to our success - and all (or the majority) of the difference makers at certain positions will be all dried up by that time - isnt it incumbent on the GM to move? To get outside the box and snag some of this difference making talent? (I also think we've had to devote too many high draft slots to the secondary. Not exactly a secondary matter - but a consideration in the overall).

My evals have all been after the fact reads. After seeing them in the pros - and I came to wonder if our scouting department had been picked over, was just "missing" more than was healthy - or if TT was slipping - cause we didnt seem to be getting any "dynamic" players.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

15 minutes ago, Leader said:

But thats the point no? Apparently you can.  It may be an "impressive effort" - probably not possible all the time - but apparently it can be done.

If we're "stuck" drafting low in rounds due to our success - and all (or the majority) of the difference makers at certain positions will be all dried up by that time - isnt it incumbent on the GM to move? To get outside the box and snag some of this difference making talent? (I also think we've had to devote too many high draft slots to the secondary. Not exactly a secondary matter - but a consideration in the overall).

My evals have all been after the fact reads. After seeing them in the pros - and I came to wonder if our scouting department had been picked over, was just "missing" more than was healthy - or if TT was slipping - cause we didnt seem to be getting any "dynamic" players.

Can it be consciously done, or is it more just dumb luck?  I tend to favor the latter.  Even in the first round, picks are about a 50-50 chance of being a hit.

Don't get me wrong, Spielman is a very good GM, probably one of the top GM's.  He had something like 6 or 7 pro bowl players in his first three drafts.  But you are starting to see that change just like it did for Thompson and picks are starting to miss- Treadwell is sure looking like a miss as an example.

I think we deal each year with the effect of Aaron Rodgers:  The Good- where he can, through sheer talent- take a team much farther than other QB's could with a given level of roster talent,  and The Bad- where his ability to make the team more successful than the roster talent ordinarily would achieve puts us in a disadvantaged draft position.

[Leader]

2 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Can it be consciously done, or is it more just dumb luck?  I tend to favor the latter.

Don't get me wrong, Spielman is a very good GM, probably one of the top GM's.  He had something like 6 or 7 pro bowl players in his first three drafts.  But you are starting to see that change just like it did for Thompson and picks are starting to miss- Treadwell is sure looking like a miss as an example.

I think we deal each year with the effect of Aaron Rodgers:  The Good- where he can, through sheer talent- take a team much farther than other QB's could with a given level of roster talent,  and The Bad- where his ability to make the team more successful than the roster talent ordinarily would achieve puts us in a disadvantaged draft position.

I didnt intend to make such a direct comparison to MN - they'd been cited by CW - so they were the example basis for my reply.

I dont have any/all the answers. I just see what I see - and it appears to be a roster thin of difference making talent at critical positions.

I just have felt that if we're continually drafting down low - we needed to vary our approach to talent acquisition. Move up in the draft? More FAs? Trades? I dont know - how about utilizing some or all of them when necessary or the possibility presents itself.

People get on me for being critical of TT when nothing could be farther than the truth. If you dont know the players coming out of college how can you be critical? You cant. I just think we got stale in our approach and were too often content to sit at the bottom of the draft day ocean and see who floated down to us - which over time - will result in a bland, less than stellar or dynamic roster.

Plus - again - we've had to devote an inordinate amount of HIGH draft picks to DBs. I know you need alot of them - but damn we seem to be drafting them all the time.

Gute appears to prefer trying the varied approach to getting talent. It will take time. We've already noted how many of TT's holdovers he's let go.