CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 13 minutes ago, Stevein2012 said: It's not helping. Neither is playing particularly well regardless of their role. You don't really want to be paying that kind of money for non impact guys. I wasn't trying to imply it was. I'm merely saying that the concept that somehow Nick Perry and Clay Matthews are keeping this team from being elite isn't legitimate argument to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevein2012 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, vegas492 said: I've never quite understood this...and I'm guilty of it as well. GB is under the salary cap. Why do we care what they pay Matthews and Perry? It isn't like the money was going somewhere else. I've never really understood why us fans get so upset with how much a player gets paid. And my word, would there ever be fits of rage if the team went into the season with Fackrell and Gilbert as our edge players. It hurts your team if players you've invested a significant portion of your limited cap space into aren't playing well and/or are injured, what's not to understand? I don't know about others but I'm not upset at all about how much a player gets paid, I just think it's fair to point out if a player isn't playing well in regards to their salary because it hurts the team more than if a low salary player isn't playing well. It doesn't mean Gute is stupid for having them on the roster, he may not have had many other options or not been able to forsee a players decline etc... but it's worth discussing whether those players have been worth the investment or would be worth a future investment or whatnot. The issue is the players performance but certain players just hurt the team more than others when they underperform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 11 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: Indeed, it is. While Pettine is doing a great job overcoming the pedestrian (or worse) play of the 2 highest-paid players on his defense, If the Pack was not devoting so much of its salary cap $ to Clay and Nick, the team could undoubtedly afford (and could have previously afforded) to improve the talent elsewhere on the roster. While you CWood are obviously perfectly fine with Perry counting $10.75M against the cap in return for his 1.5 sacks and Clay counting $11.3M for his 2.5 sacks, I somehow don't think Gute is looking at it your way. In fact, I'm confident Gute views the OLB position the way many Packers fans do, too many resources being spent on two guys for too little production and I am optimistic he will begin taking steps to rectify the problem shortly after the conclusion of the 2018 season. You are aware that if you remove Nick Perry and Clay Matthews from the roster, you have to replace them? I've asked you this a gazillion times, and every single time you've been asked you've either skirted around the question or ignored it outright. So I'm going to ask this again, and I'd love for you to surprise me. If you can clear Nick Perry and Clay Matthews' contract off the books without any negative cap implications, how do you fix our pass rush last offseason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 1 minute ago, CWood21 said: If you can clear Nick Perry and Clay Matthews' contract off the books without any negative cap implications, how do you fix our pass rush last offseason? Wait what? Pettine has been able to generate a pretty good pass rush so far this season even with Matthews and Perry contracts remaining on the books, so unless you are arguing that Pettine has not "fixed' the pass rush, I guess the answer to how the rush got "fixed" is that coaching matters and finally getting rid of Dom Capers and replacing him with a competent (or perhaps even better) defensive coordinator has made all the difference in the world. PS And what negative cap implications are you referring to regarding Matthews? Are you talking about 2015? Because in 2018 there were none. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just now, TheOnlyThing said: Wait what? Pettine has been able to generate a pretty good pass rush so far this season even with Matthews and Perry contracts remaining on the books, so unless you are arguing that Pettine has not "fixed' the pass rush, I guess the answer to how the rush got "fixed" is that coaching matters and finally getting rid of Dom Capers and replacing him with a competent (or perhaps even better) defensive coordinator has made all the difference in the world. PS And what negative cap implications are you referring to regarding Matthews? Are you talking about 2015? Because in 2018 there were none. No. You've been INCREDIBLY vocal about how our EDGE aren't very good. You believe you can fix that issue, so I want to hear your solution to how the Packers were supposed to fix them? What magical FA fix was out there? What surprise draft pick were we supposed to know? Despite Clay and Perry being mediocre in terms of individual sack production, the Packers are T-1st with sacks. You keep talking about how Clay and Nick Perry are holding the Packers back, yet the Packers are tied for the most sacks. Something has to give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Capers defense was built for the OLBs to be the stars - and that's ingrained in the *brains* of Packer Nation Pettine doesn't play that same scheme and he doesn't count on the OLB's for the bulk of the pressure - he talked about it in his opening presser and gave his reasons. Some of which were that the offense always knows where the OLB is coming from and they can adjust accordingly by sliding the blocks, chipping etc. He also noted its a shorter distance to the QB from the interior DL and that helps vs the quick throwers. Pettine wants to create confusion and delay and scheme up free rushers from all over. The success rate of an unblocked player is vastly superior to the win rate of a 255lb going against a 320lb tackle play after play after play. Offenses have adjusted, now the defenses have countered Packers do want/need better OLBs - but as noted by AG and others, they are looking for a more physical player ( DE) than a speed demon to bend the edge ala Clay in his prime. Perry should be a winner in that role, but post ankle surgery, he just hasn't been able to really pull it all together yet. 15 different defenders have recorded a sack for the Packers, just past the half way mark of the season ( scroll down to "Defense and Fumbles" ) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2018.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted November 12, 2018 Share Posted November 12, 2018 Just now, Shanedorf said: Capers defense was built for the OLBs to be the stars - and that's ingrained in the *brains* of Packer Nation Very much this. And I'd argue the majority of the defenses in the league want their OLBs to be on those one-on-one matchups. A my guy is going to beat your guy mentality. But I'd argue the Packers' D under Pettine prioritizes gap responsibility, interior pass rush, and a surprise blitzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, CWood21 said: You've been INCREDIBLY vocal about how our EDGE aren't very good. You keep talking about how Clay and Nick Perry are holding the Packers back So you really believe that Clay and Perry have both been VERY GOOD through the first 9 game of the 2018 season and that Perry's play merits his $10.75M salary and Clay's play merits his $11M salary. Wow. I obviously disagree. And do you really think an NFL GM is going to sign Matthews to another contract that pays him $11M to play in 2019? I'm pretty confident that Gute knows that Clay is being grossly overpaid vis-a-vis his production in 2018 and won't offer him a contract anywhere near that amount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: So you really believe that Clay and Perry have both been VERY GOOD through the first 9 game of the 2018 season and that Perry's play merits his $10.75M salary and Clay's play merits his $11M salary. Wow. I obviously disagree. And do you really think an NFL GM is going to sign Matthews to another contract that pays him $11M to play in 2019? I'm pretty confident that Gute knows that Clay is being grossly overpaid vis-a-vis his production in 2018 and won't offer him a contract anywhere near that amount. Ducked that question like a professional troll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOnlyThing Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Ducked that question like a professional troll Sorry, I guess I'm still too mesmerized by those high speed GIFs you posted "proving" Lacy was every bit as quick and fast as Aaron Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 28 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said: Sorry, I guess I'm still too mesmerized by those high speed GIFs you posted "proving" Lacy was every bit as quick and fast as Aaron Jones. 1. Again, give you credit for the attempted misdirection. You're really trying to work off of not answering Cwood 2. I haven't posted a gif of Eddie Lacy in probably 3 years. What the hell are you talking about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snackattack Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 1 hour ago, TheOnlyThing said: So you really believe that Clay and Perry have both been VERY GOOD through the first 9 game of the 2018 season and that Perry's play merits his $10.75M salary and Clay's play merits his $11M salary. Wow. I obviously disagree. And do you really think an NFL GM is going to sign Matthews to another contract that pays him $11M to play in 2019? I'm pretty confident that Gute knows that Clay is being grossly overpaid vis-a-vis his production in 2018 and won't offer him a contract anywhere near that amount. He was asking how you would have improved our OLB play this offseason if you had cleared matthews and perry. You answered that clay and nick suck, but didnt answer how you would have improves it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 Stop talking to it. It's not here to have actual conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyecatcher Posted November 13, 2018 Share Posted November 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Stevein2012 said: It hurts your team if players you've invested a significant portion of your limited cap space into aren't playing well and/or are injured, what's not to understand? I don't know about others but I'm not upset at all about how much a player gets paid, I just think it's fair to point out if a player isn't playing well in regards to their salary because it hurts the team more than if a low salary player isn't playing well. It doesn't mean Gute is stupid for having them on the roster, he may not have had many other options or not been able to forsee a players decline etc... but it's worth discussing whether those players have been worth the investment or would be worth a future investment or whatnot. The issue is the players performance but certain players just hurt the team more than others when they underperform. How do you decide they aren’t playing well? Because they don’t have double digit sacks? They must be doing something right in order for the rest of the team to get as many sacks as they’ve had. The edge rush isn’t what we are used to in Capers 3-4 defense. Yet the defense is so much better than Capers defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squire12 Posted November 13, 2018 Author Share Posted November 13, 2018 4 hours ago, Shanedorf said: Capers defense was built for the OLBs to be the stars - and that's ingrained in the *brains* of Packer Nation Pettine doesn't play that same scheme and he doesn't count on the OLB's for the bulk of the pressure - he talked about it in his opening presser and gave his reasons. Some of which were that the offense always knows where the OLB is coming from and they can adjust accordingly by sliding the blocks, chipping etc. He also noted its a shorter distance to the QB from the interior DL and that helps vs the quick throwers. Pettine wants to create confusion and delay and scheme up free rushers from all over. The success rate of an unblocked player is vastly superior to the win rate of a 255lb going against a 320lb tackle play after play after play. Offenses have adjusted, now the defenses have countered Packers do want/need better OLBs - but as noted by AG and others, they are looking for a more physical player ( DE) than a speed demon to bend the edge ala Clay in his prime. Perry should be a winner in that role, but post ankle surgery, he just hasn't been able to really pull it all together yet. 15 different defenders have recorded a sack for the Packers, just past the half way mark of the season ( scroll down to "Defense and Fumbles" ) https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/2018.htm Why you using logic in this place?? I think you are in the wrong subforum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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